Pakistan Retaliates Against Indian Missile Attack, Downs Three Fighter Jets iranpress.com/content/304761
Pakistan Retaliates Against Indian Missile Attack, Downs Three Fighter Jets
Pakistan has launched retaliatory military operations against India following an alleged missile strike, with reports claiming three Indian fighter jets have been shot down so far.Iran Press
apotheotic (she/her)
in reply to Clocks [They/Them] • • •Fuck hyprland
All my homies hate hyprland
Shimitar
in reply to Clocks [They/Them] • • •I don't care, i care for the tech. I don't need to make friends with the devs of the tech nor give them my money.
They have different political views than me, yes. Does it affect the tech they develop? Not in my opinion.
haui
in reply to Shimitar • • •Shimitar
in reply to haui • • •Fixed that, you are correct.
Still, I don't care if they are gay or straight communist or fascist, black yellow white or gray. Software is a tool and its apolitical.
haui
in reply to Shimitar • • •untakenusername
in reply to haui • • •uhhhh no? its authoritarian capitalism. Mussolini called it a merger of the corporation and the state, and he's the guy who started it
comfy
in reply to untakenusername • • •That's not what corporatism is, it's a different meaning of the word "corporation".
You're absolutely correct that fascism is an illiberal capitalist ideology, but Mussolini framed their movement as pro-labour, not pro-capitalist. We must learn to recognize Classical Fascism's class-collaborationist hypothesis as flawed and pro-capitalist, especially since this rhetoric is often echoed in social democracy.
political ideology which advocates the organization of society by corporate groups
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)bloup
in reply to Clocks [They/Them] • • •Luffy
in reply to bloup • • •Libre Extremist
in reply to Luffy • • •We like something.
We share it.
You may ignore it.
apotheotic (she/her)
in reply to Libre Extremist • • •Eyck_of_denesle
in reply to apotheotic (she/her) • • •apotheotic (she/her)
in reply to Eyck_of_denesle • • •comfy
in reply to apotheotic (she/her) • • •Why is it wrong to promote the things a shitty person makes?
It's FOSS, so using it doesn't give them money. On the other hand, a user might voluntarily donate if they're unaware.
One might claim they're being given a platform in the community by people promoting their product, but on the other hand I hear more loudly that they're toxic, fascist and banned from various places.
Anything else to add?
apotheotic (she/her)
in reply to comfy • • •I don't have a lot that I would add, but I would just assert that the "user might donate if they're unaware" is a big enough reason on its own. Even if you promote it alongside a caveat mentioning the moral shortcomings, the people who start using it because of your promotion might also promote it, but there's no guarantee they'll keep the caveat (in fact I'd consider it likely that people who will use the product despite the caveat are exceptionally likely to neglect to mention anything in their promotion).
And to your second point I'd say that its pretty indisputable that they are being given a platform, as evidenced by the platform they have. It is a platform that is, as you mention, not subscribed to by a lot of people with a moral backbone, but it is significant.
If I had to give a one-liner for why it is bad to promote the things a shitty person makes, I'd say "its a bit of a Nazi bar thing".
hendrik
in reply to apotheotic (she/her) • • •Ferk
in reply to hendrik • • •The more people learn to drive, the bigger the chance they'll get a private car, the more accidents, the more people will die. Thus: let's recommend everyone to not learn to drive.
I feel this path is sort of a baby-sitting approach to recommendations. Not only do I have to know if the software if good before recommending it, I also have to research if there's a chance that whoever I'm recommending it to might find a community somewhere for which they might lack enough critical thinking to judge on by themselves?
How about we recommend good software while at the same time recommending good thinking?
hendrik
in reply to Ferk • • •Ferk
in reply to hendrik • • •But that's exactly what I mean when I say recommend good software and recommend good thoughts.
Why do you assume I wanna "hide" problematic information? Did I say that? What I'm saying is don't hide the fact that good things are good. The good car will be a good car, and the manufacturer being problematic will be a problematic manufacturer.
Recommending the good car does not imply that you support the manufacturer, and denouncing the manufacturer does not imply that their cars are bad and not something we should recommend.
Do you do the same thing in reverse? Would you stop recommending good ideals if you find out that the people who came up with those ideals were actually bad people who did all kinds of shitty stuff?
What's the manufacturer of the device you are using right now?
If a notorious criminal created a cure for cancer, I'll sing praises to his amazing work, asking everyone to use it. But that dos not mean I approve of their crimes. It would be perfectly consistent with my praise of his work to, at the same time, ask for him to to be judged and sentenced accordingly for the crimes he committed..
The world is not black and white. People are not angels just because they have one good thought, nor do they become monsters that poison everything they touch if they have one wrong thought.
hendrik
in reply to Ferk • • •Yeah, seems we're on the same page, then. Because I occasionally get into that situation. People ask me stuff and I'll tell them, there is software XY or Linux distribution XY which does exactly what you're looking for, but it's owned by a company which is known for making problematic business decisions, so wouldn't recommend using it before giving it a good thought if that's going to impede with your application... Or I'll tell them about some software project and simultaneously say, I can't endorse it due to the political stance or behaviour of the devs/maintainers... Happened a few times to me with niche projects, Android distributions and Fediverse projects. I'll then not walk around and advertise for them, but instead only give a complete picture of the situation on request.
And I'll do it in other parts of my life as well... Try to boycott clothes from a particularly bad sweatshop, even if they fit and suit me well... Not buy tasty food if it's from Neste or the Coca Cola company... Though those are on a different level of "bad" as this one. Just saying toxic things on the internet isn't exactly the same as supporting child labor, slavery and stealing poor people's water supply.
Ferk
in reply to apotheotic (she/her) • • •It's morally wrong to promote bad things, and morally good to promote good things.
Just because I admire the theories Isaac Newton came up with and I encourage others to learn about them does not mean I support everything Isaac Newton did, said or thought.
All of our society is built on the shoulders of giants who did a lot of "good" despite being, in general, "bad people".
apotheotic (she/her)
in reply to Ferk • • •Thats a tangibly different example though right? Isaac Newton isn't alive to benefit from your support so the moral downside is basically gone. If a modern genius was out here breaking new ground left and right in science but he was also a raging Nazi I certainly wouldn't be promoting him and I'd be very wary of using any of his breakthroughs
However, let's centre the conversation back on what it is: a flashy tiling window manager made by a bit of a knob
Ferk
in reply to apotheotic (she/her) • • •So the bad thing is the off chance that he would benefit?
Because that's a very different thing. Then this should not be about judging morals related to the thing they made, but executing punishment for a completely separate thing they did.
Then it's not a question of morals, it's a question of whether the approach you are taking to execute that punishment is one that other people agree with.
Ah, but will you still use them? will you promote his breakthroughs if they help people? what if supporting his scientific work leads to the cure for cancer?
Punish the nazi political work, promote the scientific work.
apotheotic (she/her)
in reply to Ferk • • •Its not "the bad thing" and its not an off chance, but sure let's roll with that for the sake of having some constructive discussion.
It isn't about executing punishment, but about the moral implications of my own actions. If, by supporting this theoretical Nazi science genius, I enable him to better perform Nazism, then I have been morally complicit in his Nazism. I think we can agree on that point? Its getting into the weeds a bit with the example, but it feels important to mention, that you could theoretically support this Nazi genius if sufficient measures are taken to ensure that it doesn't benefit his nazism, thus removing the negative moral outcome. But that starts to fall apart pretty badly in this particular example of the Nazi genius.
Will I use them? Perhaps! Its about the moral outcome, right? If I can sufficiently convince myself that the overall outcome is morally positive (at a very utilitarian level this could perhaps be "does his science save more people than his Nazism kills?"), then it may well be reasonable to support. Its hard to say specifically in this example because I don't know how lifesaving his research would be and how damaging his Nazism would be. However, the moral downside in the real case we are discussing is "more people are exposed to the creator's nonsense, he may spread his views further than he otherwise would have" and the moral upside is... I get to use a specific tiling window manager? Which has 0 moral weight so the balance is pretty indisputably an overall negative, though how negative is up in the air based on speculation on how much damage he can do.
I agree in a vacuum with "punish the Nazism and promote the science" but in reality it isn't that simple. Can one support jkr's harry potter stuff without supporting her transphobic rampage? Pretty decisively not. Let's say that harry potter is somehow a moral positive, and that you can in fact somehow cut off JKRs ability to spread hate about trans people, eliminating the negative, then maybe it becomes morally OK to support jkr?
I rambled a bit, but I hope I come across clearly enough.
Ferk
in reply to apotheotic (she/her) • • •If you think anything that could benefit him is enabling that, then there's all sort of things that are complicit. Even the public social services and the State might be complicit, even people who pay taxes might be complicit.. international influence/opinion, the whole world, society would be complicit.
I'm a believer of honesty and direct punishment for direct precise problems. The more abstract the punishment, the most likely it is you'd end up with the innocent paying for the sins of the guilty.
I think people should be aware of the exact reasons why something is bad, as opposed to punishing a general abstraction without actually addressing the root of the problem. I've seen how this often results in people religiously believing something is good/bad based on sheep thinking, and this leads to situations that actually create more Nazis than what they destroy. An unjust punishment is just a badly patched up wound that will not really heal and instead extend to other parts. Have you considered this in your calculation of moral consequences?
apotheotic (she/her)
in reply to Ferk • • •I take into consideration as much as I can take into consideration. I can see the pathway directly from "I support the creator of hyprland" to "the creator of hyprland grows his platform" and I don't see any moral upside to supporting him, so this is a fairly easy calculation.
As you say, some issues are indeed more nuanced, and may have more complex balances when it comes to morality. I don't think "not promoting someone" is a punishment, it is a decision. I prefer rehabilitation over punishment, when it comes to individuals, where possible, but that's neither here nor there.
This truly has strayed so far into the abstract, however. We are talking about a guy who's nasty who makes a tiling window manager. The moral judgement can only be neutral or negative, theres basically no way that anyone could argue for a moral upside of hyprland, or at least I'd love to see someone try.
I don't support the TWM: explicitly neutral outcome, morally
I do support the TWM: either negative or neutral, morally, depending on what you determine the likely outcome of your support would be
Ferk
in reply to apotheotic (she/her) • • •It's more abstract than that, because this started with "recommending hyperland", not with "I support the creator of hyprland".
I assure you most users don't know (or care) about the creator of the software they use.
apotheotic (she/her)
in reply to Ferk • • •Ferk
in reply to apotheotic (she/her) • • •Can you tell me the political affiliation of the creator of grep? I use that tool a lot.
I think it's impossible to know for sure what the political thinking of the people involved in everything that happens to have contributed to something in your life is. Some people are not even easy to discern.. some people are interpreted out of context, some people are just caught in drama.
I'd rather take advantage of their work, be thankful for it but without any sort of para-social intent, just thankful for the mathematical algorthms.
apotheotic (she/her)
in reply to Ferk • • •Not sure, but if you're interested to know I'm sure the information is out there 😀
Edit after your edit:
Its impossible to know everything perfectly, but you can know some things to some degree and take action based on what you do know. Some will choose to not bother, and that is their decision to make, but it is a decision.
Anyway I think we're talking around in circles at this point. Have a good one.
Libre Extremist
in reply to apotheotic (she/her) • • •Promoting a tool by itself is not morally wrong. It seems like some people have a very low opinion about other people. They think that others will not be able to differentiate between a tool and the morals of its makers.
I am sorry that I have a much higher opinion about adults.
golden_zealot
in reply to Clocks [They/Them] • • •It is a quandary.
I would not support the project monetarily because I would not want to fund the primary persons behind it.
But Hyprland is FOSS is it not? Someone could fork the project to resolve the issue you are describing.
If this does not resolve the issue in your opinion (as you seem to have concerns with the "roots" of the project), and if we go with that logic, we should be just as opposed to using the modern "Jerry" gas can as it was a Nazi invention originally.
Both good and evil people invent things - whether the thing that is invented is itself reflective or could be considered supportive of the inventors ideals varies. Nazi's are terrible and I don't want to support them, but at the same time I think that it is good and useful to be able to safely and effectively transport gas if needed.
I don't know a tonne about Hyprland as a thing however, so my decision on whether or not to use it may also vary.
Simon 𐕣he 🪨 Johnson
in reply to Clocks [They/Them] • • •Vaxry is not a very smart guy. He got a wrist slap by FDO saying don't do your toxic shit here. Then he followed it up by going postal on the FDO mailing list. Then he put up a blog post where he was like like "SJWs are coming for me".
blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-i…
The entire argument is that you can't make an exclusionary space for people (no definition of what that means) but you should be able to call them slurs. Who would want anything to do with him?
superkret
in reply to Clocks [They/Them] • • •Repeat after me:
"You do not support a project or its dev in any way by just using the software you got for free."
In fact, unless you donate, advertize or contribute to the project, you're a net drain on its resources.
Corngood
in reply to superkret • • •I don't disagree exactly, but I'd argue that you're contributing to the project even if you're just reporting bugs or helping others with it on e.g. Lemmy.
I could see avoiding all of that pragmatically in order to use some obscure, critical software, but not something you use everyday and for which there are reasonable alternatives.
Rachel
in reply to Clocks [They/Them] • • •Sadly there are many people in the open source community who don't care, to them if the software is good then it doesn't matter who the artist is.
Specifically with the Linux community I feel like it's half queer people and half middle aged men and the other half often doesn't care and likely lean right wing or libertarian anyway.
That's my opinion at least.
Tons of people still use and recommend Proton even though its founder and owner is toxic and harmful to queer people as well.
pathief
in reply to Rachel • • •Have you tried to use only products made by nice guys or nice companies? It's impossible.
It's also a bit ironic to post this opinion on Lemmy, whose creators are also bigots.
cronenthal
in reply to Clocks [They/Them] • • •After reading a lot of the material I am not convinced the hyprland dev can reasonably be called a "fascist".
It's an interesting story, though.
frankenswine
in reply to cronenthal • • •untakenusername
in reply to frankenswine • • •pathief
in reply to Clocks [They/Them] • • •burghler
in reply to pathief • • •iltg
in reply to pathief • • •your argument is a bit extreme, it doesn't need to only be software from nice folks, it just needs to not be software made by not nice folks
apart from sqlite, i think everything is replaceable with a bit of compromise
what things made by not nice folks are you locked into?
pathief
in reply to iltg • • •I agree with the sentiment of support nice folks, especially in the FOSS ecosystem.
What OS are you going to use on your Smartphone if you remove software from Google and Apple? What VR headset are you going to use? What telecom are you going to use? Are you only going to shop in local food markets? Lemmy's creators are also biggots, yet here we are...
I financially support projects and people I like, but I use whatever software I enjoy using. FOSS, closed source, made by a nice guy, bad guy. If I feel my experience is good I'll use that, if something better appears along the way I'll move on.
iltg
in reply to pathief • • •aosp, fdroid, no gservices
not into vr so can't say
sadly, not a good one. i wish i had a choice, but this isn't software
sort of? i get fresh stuff from actual markets when i can and when i go for groceries i avoid ultra processed stuff from big multinationals, making sure of the provenance and the maker of the stuff i get, supermarkets also sell stuff from local producers
eh, im still leeching off some other person hosting, im not going to host lemmy and im slowly making my own thing
also can you provide examples? i heard it multiple times, I'm not contesting it, just kinda want to see myself, like with vaxry, and not only trust second hand accusations
no absolutely fine i don't check all my software too, but when i hear a callout i dont hide behind "art and artist" mentality and move off the bigot's stuff
pathief
in reply to iltg • • •While aosp with microg is a step into the right direction, it's not Google free. Most android code is made by Google and streamed to aosp.
So you think people must only use software made by nice guys but you can use hardware, services, books, movies, etc. from whoever? What makes software so special?
You're not hosting a lemmy instance but here we adding content, and therefore value, to the platform. I don't host hyprland either, I am leeching off the entire devs for zero dollars. Does that make it okay now?
I give more importance to qualities like open source, safety, privacy and performance other than who supports trump or not.
TMP_NKcYUEoM7kXg4qYe
in reply to Clocks [They/Them] • • •You probably don't care about my opinion, but one of the reason I don't really care about this is that I only have the "drama" second hand from very unreliable sources. There is the Vaxry's version of the story which cannot be trusted because that's conflict of interest. Then there is Drew, who according to a Distrotube video is quite a bizzare person, who really enjoys to stir the drama and write these extremely misleading "hitpieces" on famous FOSS people. The issue is that to me Distrotube is not a credible source regarding this either because he's got for me too schizo view of the world. He has a rifle collection, in case he has to fight for his country. (including a rifle, "that's good for children")
So it's just too foggy for me. Well I don't promote Hyprland because I don't care about my computer's "looks" and because according to some (I think) Void dev, Hyprland code is crap. But that's a different story. Anyways my point is that I can see why people can see it as not that bad.
edit: adding sources for the Drew, Distrotube and Void stuff, in that order.
youtube.com/watch?v=NLHIIVppdM…
youtube.com/watch?v=nvQ-ZY460W…
reddit.com/r/voidlinux/comment…
Free Software Is Under Attack! (Will You Help Defend It?)
YouTubeGoMati
in reply to Clocks [They/Them] • • •You call man a bigot and you make a drama publicly because you can't stand how he can have a different opinion or way of living than you, right? Guess that makes you... a bigot? 😉
I made myself a promise to donate to Hyprland and Vaxry every time I see bad press against him. And I just made another payment. He makes good software and this is something he should concentrate on and just like many others on this thread: I don't care if he has one opinion or the other. You don't like it? Just don't engage with him, his Discord or Hyprland, let the guy have his space.
Or make another bad press and make me donate again, I'll happily do that💪🏻
3laws
in reply to GoMati • • •GoMati
in reply to 3laws • • •3laws
in reply to GoMati • • •I didn't do it. He did that himself, he [pretty much, in other words] said:
"I'm fine with a genocidal transphobe homophobe racist antisemite literal murderer being welcomed of my software community if he was alive now. As long as he keeps his crimes against humanity off the main focus: my project and my project alone."
sunglocto
in reply to Clocks [They/Them] • • •I'm going to shill Hyprland just to spite you.
Maybe I would have cared about this a year ago. But you guys have said this so many times I'm honestly just tired. Try to get a new shtick. Say he's transphobic or something. That would get you more upvotes.
teawrecks
Unknown parent • • •iltg
Unknown parent • • •lemmy is not a great comparison, there's like 3 alternatives, there are tens if not more hyprland alternatives.
i don't think software is just software, why would this tech be exempt? pilot-less aircrafts is just tech, just like software, but we do remember that drones bomb people. supporting problematic developers is not "as bad" as building killing machines, but it's the same principle: looking the other way when it's convenient. we should aim to ostracize and isolate problematic devs, and it starts by not using their software, because doing so gives them clout and relevance
Charlxmagne
in reply to Clocks [They/Them] • • •This is akin to MAGA calling the pope marxist cuz he disagrees with them, some people are so one-dimensional its comical, you cant fight stupidity with stupidity, this is how actual fascists justify all of their extremist views, extremism just encourages extremism on the other side and gives those who are indoctrinated a bigger reason to support their indoctrinators. Tunnel vision is one crazy phenomenon 🤡
Regardless of his views I'll continue using it and supporting it.
Charlxmagne
in reply to Clocks [They/Them] • • •iltg
in reply to teawrecks • • •i'm not on wayland so i can't try any of these, but there are lists you can browse from (wiki.archlinux.org/title/Wayla… for example)
you are setting quite restrictive and arbitrary limits
what do you mean?
what counts as "smooth animations"?
if your message boils down to "something which looks really good to me and that has a discord i can go into and ask for help", you may have set the requirements tight enough to only include hyprland, but that's not a valid excuse in my opinion to avoid boycotting problematic developers
Wayland - ArchWiki
wiki.archlinux.orgteawrecks
in reply to iltg • • •I agree they're restrictive and arbitrary reasons and they're also the preference of every single hyprland user has for chosing it. You have a different set of arbitrary reasons for setting your system up the way you like. It's called a "preference".
In order to fulfill this preference, is it ok for me to fork hyprland and call it something else? Or do I need to rewrite hyprland's functionality from scratch and pretend it was all my idea? Can I reference hyprland during the rewrite or does it need to be clean room? Should i make a fork available for people who disapprove of the hyprland devs? But what if I'm not a good enough person? Oof, just noticing, i forgot to check the ideologies of each maintainer of the thousands of packages in my system.
I think it's possible that the boycott idea makes more sense in a capitalist setting than a communist one. The reason we stop supporting JK Rowling or Chick-Fil-A is because being a customer directly translates to their success and thus the success of their ideology. But no one is making a profit from developing and maintaining a Linux package. In fact, typically the more people use your package, the more thankless work falls on you.
I'm simply interested in having control over my PC, and the FOSS community exists to exchange learnings and code to enable each other to do that. And like all of science throughout history, there are problematic people who contribute useful ideas, and I think we would be cutting off our own noses to reject them just because they come from people we otherwise disagree with.