The Problem with the Fediverse
I have no issues with the way it is implemented, I have no issues with it at all. For context, I left Twitter to join the Fedi, and it has been great so far! I use Misskey for microblogging, PeerTube for uploading videos, and Lemmy for Reddit-style discussions. The Fediverse is amazing!
Except, idk, for the fact that it is too fragmented? I hope I am using the right words. Like, the current instance I am on does not have support for communities, so i have to do it the hard way and mention @fediverse@lemmy.world so that I can post here. It's a good workaround, considering it doesn't have built-in support for communities.
But my point still stands. It's not a Lemmy/PieFed problem. It's mostly a fediverse problem. Implementing communities for every platform would help the Fediverse. Not only does it solve discoverability/algorithm issues of the Fediverse (since now when you follow a community, you get all posts from that community), but also it would interconnect every platform (Misskey, PeerTube, Mastodon, etc.)
Imagine you don't have to use your Lemmy account to check everything on Lemmy. Instead of creating channels in PeerTube, just post to an existing channel/community, and people subscribed to that channel/community can find you easily. I see this as an absolute win for everyone.
I understand this would require collaboration between all developers of all software. But hopefully, this is possible?
Or am I asking for too much?
If I am wrong, then is there any way in which we can solve this issue?
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ThatOneAnnoyingBro
in reply to Znatley • • •Why ask when you can contribute(we, I need to do a project for my portfolio aswell)
What do you say? Next year??
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Znatley
in reply to ThatOneAnnoyingBro • • •Combine Masto, PeerTube and Lemmy into one... kind of like Twitter+Reddit+Yt into one app
Microw
in reply to Znatley • • •The developers of Fedi software have different philosophies. Some developers are just not interested in implementing and supporting all kinds of AP actors, kinds of media, ways of attaching media etc. Because they want their software to focus on a certain thing.
Others want to implement everything and interconnect with every platform.
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Znatley
in reply to Microw • • •Hopefully they work more on this.
@fediverse@lemmy.world
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Blaze (he/him)
in reply to Znatley • • •Mbin has support for both microblogging and communities (so Twitter and Reddit like): fedia.io/ Maybe that's something that can interest you.
It doesn't seem too popular, probably because the Twitter and Reddit crowd always had a limited overlap.
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Die4Ever
in reply to Blaze (he/him) • • •This is probably why it's not a focus for developers. If Mbin was some huge success, it would show demand for the feature, and more developers would prioritize it higher.
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in reply to Die4Ever • • •like this
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in reply to Blaze (he/him) • • •OccasionallyFeralya likes this.
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Znatley
in reply to Blaze (he/him) • • •melroy likes this.
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it_depends_man
in reply to Znatley • • •That IS the built in support.
Yes you are wrong, just keep doing it the way you just successfully did in this. That's the solution.
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Znatley
in reply to it_depends_man • • •rglullis
in reply to Znatley • • •From Evan Prodromou, co-author of ActivityPub: The Fediverse should be more like the Facebook Platform (lots of client apps using the same social graph) rather than the Apple App Store (a bunch of one-feature apps that have to bootstrap their own social network each time).
The issue here is that most developers and users are still thinking in terms of the siloed networks. We don't need "multiple, separate platforms". We need to get rid of the platforms! We need to build our tools around protocols.
The WWW was incredibly successful because anyone could whip up some HTML and publish a webpage. The "protocol" of structured text alongside with links was simple to understand, any browser could do it. The Social Web should work the same.
Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Free Speech
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Znatley
in reply to rglullis • • •Die4Ever likes this.
rglullis
in reply to Znatley • • •It looks like that first you need to be able to better articulate what do you mean "federating everywhere", because I can follow a Lemmy community from Mastodon just fine, and you seem to be on Misskey, and we are communicating just fine.
IOW, "federation" is already working.
Perhaps you just mean that you want the UX from misskey to change depending on the source? And you are proposing that this should be done to all software?
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Znatley
in reply to rglullis • • •Lemmy -> Misskey works fine. It's Misskey -> Lemmy which is a bit of a problem, because Lemmy communities and Misskey channels are two different things. Misskey channels dont even federate server-to-server.
I respect the developer's choices, but if Misskey is going to implement something like channels, might as well federate them too...
I apologise if i havent been clear with the whole "federating" communities, hope this clears things up...
@fediverse@lemmy.world
rglullis
in reply to Znatley • • •Znatley
in reply to rglullis • • •@fediverse@lemmy.world
I may not have conveyed my point clearly.
If it was merely a Misskey problem, i wouldnt have made this post, so ill list my likes and problems one by one, i may have been vague with communication:
My likes:
1. Interconnected: i dont need to elaborate too much. One account, to all platforms...
2. Opensource: also not much elaboration.
3. Protocol centric, not platform centric...
My ONLY dislike:
1. Lack of definite communication: Misskey may be my favourite, but it sucks the most when it comes to federating with other instances. There is no upvote system, no favourites system, no saved posts system. I can only reply and send reactions, and those reactions may not even federate properly. Same when i was using Mastodon. There was no downvote system, crosspost, etc. The worst in my opinion is the fact that devs are trying their best to federate with each other but throught different ways. My point is, this discrepancy between platforms calls for standardized system.
I hope i have explained well enough. I apologise if i wasnt clear with this earlier... any solutions to the aforementioned problem?
rglullis
in reply to Znatley • • •There is no such thing as "upvote" on ActivityPub. This is an abstraction on top of the "Like" activity. If Misskey UI is geared only towards reactions and doesn't have a way for users to "like" something, this is a Misskey problem, not a Fediverse one.
And what people are trying to explain to you is that this "standardized system" already exists. ActivityStreams is the standard to define a vocabulary, and ActivityPub is the standard that defines what happens when data is sent between different servers.
The issue I am taking with your comment is that it seems that you are expecting developers to start backwards from an unified product vision and then build their way down to the standard. This only works well when you have one single entity controlling everything. It's the "Apple Way" of developing products.
Die4Ever
in reply to Znatley • • •I really don't mind having a separate account for Lemmy and Mastodon. It's not pleasant to force different types of content into different website formats, even if the implementation is "ideal".
That said, I am surprised Misskey doesn't allow you to follow @fediverse@lemmy.world as you would follow a user, Mastodon allows this (it's not as good as viewing inside Lemmy but it does work).
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in reply to Die4Ever • • •like this
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in reply to DrCake • • •like this
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in reply to Die4Ever • • •irelephant [he/him] likes this.
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Die4Ever
in reply to Znatley • • •Do it! You'll probably find like-minded users. Don't forget PixelFed and Loops too.
Although maybe you could just contribute to Mbin or fork it, cause I feel like it already does all of this?
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Znatley
in reply to Die4Ever • • •like this
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Die4Ever
in reply to Znatley • • •It makes me mad how many people refused to leave Twitter, or even just diversify to posting on other platforms, even if they're supposed to be left leaning politically...
GamesDoneQuick for example, they always say "trans rights" and yet their only social media account was on Twitter, until they joined Bluesky just 5 months ago and they still post on both. I don't get it. They could've made a Bluesky or Mastodon account years ago, even if they keep posting to Twitter just mirror your posts!
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Znatley
in reply to Die4Ever • • •Die4Ever likes this.
Die4Ever
in reply to Znatley • • •fedia.io/
melroy
in reply to Die4Ever • • •Join Mbin
joinmbin.orglike this
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melroy
in reply to Znatley • • •redshift doesn't like this.
Znatley
in reply to melroy • • •I tried mbin (registered an account for my brother). The UI isnt that bad, UI is actually well-built, i think what scared me was the the different terminologies. On mbin, you have magazines instead of communities, and microblog instead of posts. But it's not that it's bad, youll get used to it.
The disorganised yet connect nature of the fediverse is something we'll have to get used to. It's like how we all can appreciate different cultures from different countries around the world and be able to share and appreciate one another despite differences in culture. The real problem isnt with the Fediverse, it's with how culturally "bland" social media is now...
Ive checked the repo too, but since ive just started with coding, i do not understand anything... 
ill try my best to contribute however i can, really want to see mbin continue the legacy...
@fediverse@lemmy.world...
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melroy
in reply to Znatley • • •@mkmusic@torishiro.com we have several first good issues, allowing people to start contributing: github.com/MbinOrg/mbin/issues…
Of course you can also join our matrix, if you have not already and help others: matrix.to/#/%23mbin-general:me…
Or you can also help with documentation. See docs folder: github.com/MbinOrg/mbin/tree/m…
Or help with translations: hosted.weblate.org/engage/mbin…
There are many ways how people can help and contribute!
MbinOrg/mbin
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Znatley
in reply to Die4Ever • • •i just checked your full conversation on your instance (misskey doesnt support edited posts)
Misskey does support following the community, its just not done elegantly. All replies from the community show up on my home page, which isnt great.
For now, ill stick with misskey till i find a worthy contender, just love msky reactions too much (too goofy lol, with sfx and all)
@fediverse@lemmy.world
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irelephant [he/him]
in reply to Die4Ever • • •Znatley
in reply to Znatley • • •BentiGorlich likes this.
Blaze (he/him)
in reply to Znatley • • •Good luck. I know you said you were not a fan of the Mbin UI, but they are already halfway there with Microblogging and Communities (maybe videos even? @melroy@kbin.melroy.org @BentiGorlich@gehirneimer.de ?)
It might be easier to contribute there than to start from scratch.
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BentiGorlich
in reply to Blaze (he/him) • • •@Blaze@lemmy.dbzer0.com @fediverse@lemmy.world @mkmusic@torishiro.com @melroy@kbin.melroy.org
Yes we support basically everything mentioned here. Peertube videos, Lemmy posts and Mastodon / Misskey, etc. (called mircoblogs in the UI)
On the microblog side mbin still has a long way to go to be perfect, right know you just know that it is not the primary focus.
Mbin is written in php together with the smyfony framework. We always welcome new devs and I'll do my best to answer any questions that will arise 😀
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Znatley
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Znatley
in reply to Hikurn_Xi • • •I could see why you didnt put it.
This instance is actually really nice, has all the features i need... thanks @admin
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gedaliyah
in reply to Znatley • • •Znatley
in reply to gedaliyah • • •Ludrol likes this.
rodneyck
in reply to Znatley • • •I have an issue with Fediverse, Lemmy to be exact. The platform is allowing an outside tool that was built for a mod or admin of a community to see votes, how people vote, but it is being exploited by users to spy/dox/harass, gang-up, and use as a tool to exploit other users nefariously. The tool is called Lemvotes. You can access the portal here. Here is a quote from a user (go $fsck yourself @ lemmy.world) who exploits this sharing how to use it with other users;
This tool, imo, should be banned, or the platform to be "patched" to only allow this to work for admins, not users who abuse it.
GitHub - gragorther/votes: A tool to list a post/comment's votes on Lemmy
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rglullis
in reply to rodneyck • • •There is no such thing as a "vote" in ActivityPub/ActivityStreams. This idea of "up/down votes" is just an abstraction of a message saying "Actor A liked B", where B is an Post/Comment (and a post/comment itself just being an abstraction of ActivityStreams objects).
That is to say: there is no way to selectively hide the content a message. If you want federation to work and you want people outside your own server to see your posts, then the server needs to broadcast the messages to anyone listening.
Tools like lemvotes are just exposing this information. There is no point in trying to censor the tool, because this information is available publicly, and any motivated person will be able to track this information.
If you are concerned about what people think of your "likes" and "dislikes", then do not use a public social media service and only communicate with provably secure communication tools.
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Melmi
in reply to rodneyck • • •I think this is less a problem of "nefarious bad actors" and more a problem of expectations. Honestly, I agree with the quoted comment: I think they should be visible all the time, like they already are on Mbin. I think it would help change the way people think about votes so that they don't expect Reddit-style anonymous votes and instead it's a more public Facebook/Twitter-style like system.
If you really want private votes, Piefed has feature that lets you anonymize your votes, but a determined bad actor could still deanonymize you. I think it's better to change expectations than to try to massage a fundamentally public platform into having private votes, but it's good there's an option for people since it's so highly requested.
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confuser
in reply to Znatley • • •I think what will eventually happen is much like what happened to email, it too was very fragmented feeling early on but more and more adopted it and more servers kept developing and popping up and then at some point more service providers became more similar than alike and then it became what it is now.
The tricky part is that the concept and usefulness of a federated network mostly only grows in the long run and looks like its not going anywhere in the short term much like email and that is always what makes people question its efficacy.
Participation in any and all forms is what establishes it more and more.
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Znatley
in reply to confuser • • •@fediverse@lemmy.world
Hopefully it's heading for that direction too.
I cant really complain now after seeing all of your valid points.
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3dcadmin
in reply to Znatley • • •like this
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Blaze (he/him)
in reply to 3dcadmin • • •What about just pointing them to feddit.uk/ , with getvoyager.app/ for an app?
Lemmy.ca got a lot of new joiners following the boycottUSA movement in February
Voyager for Lemmy
getvoyager.appZnatley
in reply to 3dcadmin • • •i think that not the problem with the fediverse, but the problem with how wehave been cultured so far. We got the concept of emails, we should get used to this soon too...
@fediverse@lemmy.world
3dcadmin
in reply to Znatley • • •I_Snort_Butterflies likes this.
Znatley
in reply to 3dcadmin • • •its 2025, and people still dont know how to use email?! And they are using the internet?!!! Its clearly not the fediverse's fault...
My parents barely know how to use a computer, let alone use social media. And they STILL understand how email works! Our family grew up with email.
I am very much worried about the future of the tech world, if this continues...
Sorry to appear disrespectful to you, i truly understand what you're saying. But, i truly dont get people like them...
@fediverse@lemmy.world
3dcadmin
in reply to Znatley • • •3dcadmin
in reply to Znatley • • •Znatley
in reply to 3dcadmin • • •i hope the phones do not fall under the custody of these people...
@fediverse@lemmy.world