I'm about to sign off for the year - actually, I was ready to do it yesterday, but then I happened upon a brief piece of writing that was so perfect that I decided I'd do one more edition of Pluralistic for 2025.

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If you'd like an essay-formatted version of this thread to read or share, here's a link to it on pluralistic.net, my surveillance-free, ad-free, tracker-free blog:

pluralistic.net/2025/12/18/sel…

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in reply to Cory Doctorow

Also think about why the farmer is selling their harvest early at a set price. A rich farmer could wait for the money and take the gamble on the final price. Most farmers have to hedge their risk because they're not rich.

As for the other side of that hedge, the person taking that gamble is, by necessity, rich. They can front the money, and can gamble on poor crops. And, in many cases, they can manipulate the risk itself by say buying up canned mangoes and choosing if and when to sell them.

So, even in the narrow, best case where the financiers are offering risk hedging as a service, like in gambling "the house always wins".

in reply to Cory Doctorow

the source article linked by Cory is quite long but really good! Definitely give it a read if you have some time:

lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v46/n17/jo…

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in reply to wall-e / Daniel

thinking about this a little more...there's a potentially very sinister side to this.
Consider all the "retail broker" apps people are using. Robinhood, Webull, Trade Republic and the like. All these apps generate tracking and telemetry data, all those orders go through large market makers.
Have you read those privacy policies? I'm willing to bet that the data these generate end up in some Quant models, allowing them to predict how "retail" moves
in reply to Cory Doctorow

The way all this theory was sold to me when I worked in it was that yeah derivatives may all be zero-sum trades but they all generate valuable telemetry that can be mined for signals to use in refining the effectiveness and efficiency of the market.

That’s a more nuanced and subtle point to consider. It’s also complete horseshit, and it’s reinforced and fortified horseshit that costs a whole lot more to effort to debunk than the bullshit used to snow the retail investors.

One suspects the real purpose of all that derivative froth has long been to provide a maze of twisty passages in which to hide to the world’s vast money laundering operations.

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in reply to Cory Doctorow

Yikes. The mango example is a nice example of little value added.

But to say the whole derivatives market is speculation? This is very counter to my experience with derivatives in institutional investing (eg for long duration life insurance and pension liabilities). The most common ones we use are foreign exchange rate derivatives and lengthening interest rate derivatives. Both of these are used to ensure that the assets we invest today will be sufficient to pay the claim when people need it decades from now.