As much as I admire the techlash, I have some serious reservations. I worry that there's some pretty useful tech babies that we are at risk of throwing away with the bathwater.

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in reply to Cory Doctorow

Couldn't an even narrower change to section 230 preserve the liability shield if someone isn't making any "editorial decisions"?

For example, RSS and chronological feeds, no problem, fully shielded. But, as soon as you promote certain content, you become a "publisher" and can be held liable?

Section 230 reads "No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher..." But, when Facebook and YouTube are trying to boost engagement by selecting the most rage-inducing content and forcing it into your feed, they do seem like publishers.

I'm sure the devil's in the details. Like, is a stickied forum post enough to make someone a publisher? But, generally this would draw a distinction between algorithmic platforms (big tech) and chronological platforms (traditional forums).

in reply to Cory Doctorow

If Meta and friends were to lose the ability to manipulate feeds and emotions without being seen as publishers, losing the explore tab seems like the tiniest possible price to pay.

But, yeah, the devil is in the details. Losing the option to block spam would be a problem.

If a law could be crafted by Tim Wu, Lina Khan, Elizabeth Warren etc. I think it could improve 230. But, this congress would do the exact wrong thing, especially once big tech got their FAANGs into it.

in reply to Cory Doctorow

I don't really see the connection to section 230 there. Meta has full section 230 protection, but bent the knee and adjusted its algorithms immediately when Trump was elected. Something only possible *because* it has algorithmic feeds, not a chronological ones.

It seems like what's saving small instances right now isn't section 230, it's that they're too small to bother with.

in reply to Merc

Again, I'm not suggesting scrapping 230, just adjusting it. The original purpose was to treat online sites as a "public library, book store, or newsstand" (Cubby v Compuserve) that couldn't be expected to know the contents of the things they were distributing. But, algorithmic social media sites definitely do know what they're distributing, and choose the most "engaging" things to show to their users. IMO they are definitely more publishers than distributors these days.
in reply to Merc

Is your argument that the status quo is best because we can't imagine how much worse things could get? Or that every medium should have equivalent of section 230 protection, including TV, radio and newspapers? If a newspaper editor hand-selects a "juicy" op-ed in which someone defames someone else, should the newspaper be able to claim 230 protection because they merely hosted the op-ed? Or is that only OK when it's online?
in reply to Cory Doctorow

I'm not a lawyer, but it seems like other mediums don't have section 230 protection. "No provider or user of [a medium] shall be treated as the publisher or speaker...". Look at radio for example:

studentmedia.dasa.ncsu.edu/the… "Radio stations can also be charged with slander by rebroadcasting a defamatory statement made by someone else (such as in sound clip from a news story)."

in reply to Merc

@merc I'm sorry, this is a very silly argument: "This harmful policy I support shouldn't be viewed as harmful, because other harmful policies exist."

Not only that, but this completely ignores what *actually happened* when we carved sex trafficking claims out of SESTA/FOSTA. The status quo ante was safer and better for sex workers. After the reform, things got immediately, durably, terribly worse.

There's a reason Mark Zuckerberg wants to get rid of 230.

in reply to Cory Doctorow

What happened with SESTA/FOSTA is bad, but it was the result of denying protection based on the content of the messages rather than the actions of the sites. What I'm saying boils down to "if the entity acts like a publisher it should be treated like a publisher" If it's just a telephone pole people are stapling things to, it should have the liability of a telephone pole. There shouldn't be a special exception for internet sites where someone gets to act like a publisher, but be shielded like a telephone pole.
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Cory Doctorow

@Ehay2k

You're correct: CDA 230 doesn't apply to stuff the platform itself creates, so I'm not sure why you'd raise it here.

As to "promotion": what liability would arise from promoting something "hateful and false." Neither hate nor falsity are illegal (indeed, both are protected by the First Amendment). Removing 230 protections for "hateful and false" speech wouldn't actually make platforms civilly liable for it, because there is no liability for it.

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Cory Doctorow

@Ehay2k What about #MeToo? Should posts from obscure account accusing Harvey Weinstein of raping them have been downranked by services, unless their moderators were personally able to verify them?

What about viral videos of cops beating the shit out of Black drivers they pulled over? These cops already assert irreparable reputational harm from these - what webhost would permit them if they could be named to civil suits?

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Cory Doctorow

@Ehay2k No, the *reason* people followed #MeToo is that it went viral thanks to recommendation algorithms. People didn't intuit the existence of the hashtag, type it into the search tool, and then start following it.

Further, the search tool *also* ranked the messages, because spammers *routinely* add trending tags to spams and scams. Without ranking, a search for any popular tag would be ten million spams.