The impossibility of finding a Linux laptop that I like
I'm a Linux user since 1998 (my main desktop PC runs Debian), however I do have a couple of Macs around because I love their hardware (not so much the software though). In fact, I have three old MacBook Airs (mid-2011, 2012, 2015), all running Linux. The moment I got them, I erased MacOS and installed Linux pronto!
But my main laptop is a MacBook Air M1 with MacOS because it's much faster than these older Intel-based MacBook Airs. Modern web browsing and video editing requires a lot of processing power.
So, I want to move to have my main laptop running Linux too. I DON'T want to install Asahi Linux on my M1, because I don't consider it a proper solution for my needs (I want to run Resolve, you see, and most foss apps that I use would need recompiling). Also, I don't like that Asahi is dependent on MacOS to exist, because you can't boot with a usb to install it.
My issue is that I can't find ANYTHING on the PC market that is as slick or full featured as a MacBook Air (minus its limited ports). What I need is this:
- Screen no larger than 13.3" inches, Full HD at least, preferably good color gamut (but not a must). I still need the laptop to be portable though. Basically, I'm not even asking for HDR, as the MacBook Air features.
- Keyboard to have backlight, without the numpad (I hate these laptops where the touchpad is off center).
- The touchpad needs to be glass or of equivalent feel. The Apple touchpads slide/glide with ease. I find every PC touchpad I've used so far to be "sticky". My finger on some Chromebooks and Dell/Lenovo laptops is doing a "grrrkkk, grrrkkkk" when I slide my finger! There's something special about Apple's touchpads, I dunno.
- Intel 13th+ gen CPU, with passmark points over 17,000 on multi-threading. My M1 scores about 12,000 points, and it's 5 years old. So obviously I'd need something faster than what I have now.
- Intel GPU (no AMD or Nvidia please, I need Intel's superior video decoding abilities). On a Mac that isn't a problem, because Apple does support these 10bit 4:2:2 codecs I need, with hardware acceleration. But on the PC side, only Intel provides good support for these without headaches (only the newest nvidias support that, but I don't want to use Nvidia for too many reasons -- AMD is a disaster on that video front btw). I don't play 3D games.
- I need speakers that sound good. Every single PC laptop I've tried, had the worst sound ever. I need it to be hear-able on YouTube and not sound as if you're listening via a can. I bought a Thinkpad x280 a few months ago and I can't use it because its speakers are so bad! DELL (from 5 years ago that I tried) aren't better either.
- I need a (supported) fingerprint reader!
- 32 GB of RAM.
- 1 TB of storage.
- Below a $1800 price tag. That's the price I can get with a MacBook Air for all that.
Now, you might think that "well, it seems that you just want a new MacBook", but that's not true. I want a PC laptop so I can run Debian Linux instead of MacOS. But I need it to be a laptop that is "proper" by my own standards. The quality of the interaction between my palms, fingers, eyes and PC laptops IS NOT the same as with any Apple laptop I've ever used. The reason people buy Apple hardware is NOT because "MacOSX is lickable" (as it was suggested many years ago by Jobs). I've actually researched the "why". It's because the INTERACTION of your senses and the laptop's design/quality FITS. It's like a glove for one another. It's difficult to explain but I know it now to be true. It was never MacOSX itself (although MacOSX's gui smoothness helps the overall experience).
So the question is: am I missing that special, Linux-compatible, PC laptop somewhere? If you know that such a laptop exists, please reply with a link. I'll buy it in a heartbeat.
This is a serious post btw. I spent the whole weekend trying to find that mythical PC laptop, and I can't. I'm frustrated.
EDIT: I might end up with the Framework 13. Not 100% what I'm after, but probably the best solution right now.
EDIT 2: I bought a DELL 5640 16" laptop, 32 GB RAM, i7 cpu, that comes with Linux pre-installed (so I know it's compatible). It ticks all my boxes except the size and the trackpad being off center. Oh well.
like this
cherry
in reply to Eugenia • • •space_comrade [he/him]
in reply to cherry • • •Eugenia
in reply to cherry • • •harsh3466
in reply to Eugenia • • •Eugenia
in reply to harsh3466 • • •WellTheresYourCobbler [ey/em, they/them]
in reply to Eugenia • • •spankinspinach
in reply to Eugenia • • •I have a first gen, and it does. There was some coding stickiness, and (i haven't been able to solve) a key that the fingerprint reader doesn't get access too. The effect is that it logs you in and then you get a pop-up that asks for your system password (though you can start using right away). I'm only a junior level coder though, ans just haven't solved it- others might have.
Imo, the framework might mostly meet your spec. I came from a 2012 mac and the build quality and feel are the best I've seen in a non-apple laptop.
One comment on audio, I find mine can be tinny, verging in crappy. This may have been upgraded in more recent models.
Finally, I know you don't want AMD, but they have an AMD AI motherboard that I thought looked very interesting, at least for complex processing. Perhaps it will be of value to explore further? Just a thought.
Happy shopping! 😀
WFH
in reply to Eugenia • • •I have a 16, not a 13, but:
- it does have a supported fingerprint reader (at least on Fedora)
- spec it without RAM and SSD and buy them elsewhere. You can save several hundred [currency unit]s.
- the trackpad is glass and is quite good for a PC. Definitely not current-gen MacBook Pro-level.
- The speakers are meh. I'd say ok-tier for a PC, nowhere near a MacBook Pro either.
Framework laptops are expensive, but you buy repairability and upgradability. A lot of parts have already been improved in the 5(?) years the FW13 has been around.
cherry
in reply to Eugenia • • •Kongar
in reply to Eugenia • • •You want a MacBook. Apple has always made fantastic hardware. If you’re not willing to compromise, you’re stuck with macs.
Example, literally nobody else makes a trackpad like that.
Eugenia
in reply to Kongar • • •Thank you, I think this puts it well. I'm not sure yet if I want to compromise or not, to be honest. I was hoping there's a well-designed PC laptop out there.
In fact, 2 years ago I bought a levovo (16,000 passmark points, touchscreen, unfortunately large). I thought "ok, I'll compromise". But the moment my fingers touched the touchpad, I just couldn't use it. It was just terrible. Sticky, and NOWHERE to disable the terrible tap-n-drag (I had left it with Windows11 back then).
That laptop now belongs to my niece. I just gave it away (and it was our fastest machine at our house at the time!).
Jumuta
in reply to Eugenia • • •Sorry if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing the problem you have is:
- you're used to Apple trackpads that are really good
- although other trackpads aren't exactly unusable or worse in performance, you don't want to use them because they feel worse
consider using a trackpoint instead of a touchpad, that way you don't have a point of comparison for it to "feel worse" (trackpoint is superior anyway)
i have the same kinda thing with not wanting to give up my thinkpad keyboard, and ofc i don't want a modern shitty laptop keyboard but I'll probably have to swallow it some day
Kongar
in reply to Eugenia • • •There’s three threads recommending framework 13. I commented in one. I actually own a new 13 with all the latest stuff. It comes close, but it’s not a Mac.
The trackpad works really good except it has a lot of play in it - it’s annoying.
I’ve seen better screens. Yes I have the newest one, no it’s not terrible - but there’s better out there.
The speakers are just ok. Not bad, just ok.
The 13 craftsmanship wise is amazing. My father in law just bought the 16. That one has fit issues with the trackpad and the spacers on either side of it.
Fingerprint readers on both and they work great. No touchscreen.
Battery life is good. Macs are better. My 13 goes about 6-7 hours of continual “normal use”. If I’m using teams for a video call, it’s significantly less - maybe 3 hours. Games - depends on the game but that can drain it in a couple of hours. You cannot under any circumstances go an entire day+ of continuous use without charging.
They are both fantastic linux machines (frameworks) and I highly recommend them. But the hardware is not Mac perfect despite what others say. Just trying to be real here - sounds like you have high expectations and I’d hate for you to buy an expensive laptop and be dissatisfied.
data1701d (He/Him)
in reply to Eugenia • • •What model Thinkpad was it? Just curious.
Part of me wants to plug Thinkpad E16 as the cheapest new laptop you can get away with, but if the trackpad is the same one that drives you insane. Honestly, I don’t really care about the trackpad because I exclusively use Trackpoint.
Also, I would call the speakers mediocre, but honestly, I rarely listen to audio on my laptop, so they may be total crap.
tiramichu
in reply to Eugenia • • •I feel like I'm in the same boat. I don't have a solution, just wanted to say I understand your perspective.
I've completely ditched Microsoft from my life and I'd love to ditch Apple too, but there's just nothing on the market I've seen which matches the build and usability of macbook hardware.
With the old Intel macs it was simple enough to run Linux but now with Apple Silicon it's not on the cards. I love what the Asahi team have been doing and I hope they keep doing it, but it's not ready for primetime yet.
And so I've reached the same annoying conclusion - for the moment I'm stuck with Mac, and therefore stuck with macos too.
Eugenia
in reply to tiramichu • • •Dariusmiles2123
in reply to Eugenia • • •I understand your feeling as I like the Apple classy touch and would love to find it elsewhere.
I guess you’re gonna have to compromise on something as I don’t know about any laptop bring all of these things.
sgtlion [any]
in reply to Eugenia • • •Apple hardware may piss off in my world, glad it works for you but claiming some universal UX superiority is very silly.
I can't stand the keyboard layout, the touchpad, the case shape, the crummy ports, I really dislike it all.
Admit you're very picky and just want Apple because it fits your specific desires; that is fine.
magguzu
in reply to Eugenia • • •Dell XPS 13 checks all your boxes except good speakers.
I have the XPS 15 9510 model. Intel 13th gen i7, backlit keyboard, great trackpad, sleek design. It came with 16GB ram but I replaced with 32.
I bought it "refurb" on eBay last May SPECIFICALLY because I wanted the most Mac-like PC. Running Arch Linux from day one and it's been rock solid and super fast. The speakers aren't great and the mic is pretty bad. But I usually use headphones or external speakers when docked.
I honestly am very happy with it and it was only like $550.
I spent a bunch of time before this comparing new computers; between Thinkbooks, Framework, Tuxedo, XPS. In the end I decided what I wanted didn't require it to be new. I was only concerned about degraded battery but I can replace that myself when the time comes.
I don't want to plug the seller but they're constantly selling these on eBay so you'll probably see them if you search.
Side note I disabled the NVIDIA GPU and only use the Intel iGPU which has saved a lot of battery.
Eugenia
in reply to magguzu • • •Eugenia
in reply to magguzu • • •magguzu
in reply to Eugenia • • •Courant d'air 🍃
in reply to magguzu • • •Ulu-Mulu-no-die
in reply to Eugenia • • •Unfortunately I believe Apple hardware is unsurpassed when it comes to solid builds, care into details, functionalities and beautiful appearances.
I've been using Linux for over 20 years, never had problems making my desktops look good and work fine with the right cases and components, but laptops? meh
Only once in 20 years I found one that I like aesthetically and has all the compatible hardware (full Intel only), I got it at half the price because they weren't making it anymore...
Ecco the dolphin
in reply to Eugenia • • •I bought a refirb Chromebook with an Intel CPU for $150 and put Debian on it.
Its a piece of shit, but I feel like a technology racoon. Its also lightweight. I do my homework on it.
Speakers don't work tho, but it's OK thats what headphones are for.
You could just go cheap until u find something perfect.
Eugenia
in reply to Ecco the dolphin • • •I already have 5 laptops. Laptops that range from 2800 passmark points to 5500 points (older Chromebooks usually clock between 1400 and 4000 points, so yours is probably in that range). I use these laptops as testbeds mostly, not as my main laptops for work/browsing. I need something faster than my M1 Macbook Air (which clocks 14,000 points -- and that's already 5 years old). So a 6th refurbished, old, slow laptop won't do the job.
In fact, funnily enough, I've done the same mistake with video cameras back in the day. I was buying cheaper stuff, thinking that one feature here, or one feature there would make out for not buying a more expensive camera. They weren't enough. I had to wait to 2024 to actually find the video camera that I was looking for in 2011.
Same for phones. Even after the popularization of the iphone and android, I still didn't like them. I had to wait until about 2018-or-so, to feel that they had matured to the level I envisioned them 15 years earlier!
I guess I have certain ideas on what I want from hardware and anything less doesn't cut it...
VibeCoder [they/them]
in reply to Eugenia • • •HumanPerson
in reply to Eugenia • • •Eugenia
in reply to HumanPerson • • •Kongar
in reply to HumanPerson • • •I have a framework 13 running Linux. It’s fantastic - but it’s not up to the high bar OP has laid out (IMO).
The screen is nice - but I’ve seen nicer. The trackpad works well, but the fit has a little bit to be desired - it’s no apple trackpad. The speakers are ok. Not bad, just ok. It’s also pricey.
If OP can compromise on those things, then yes, it’s probably as close to Mac hardware as he’ll get.
Tundra
in reply to HumanPerson • • •You can vastly improve any laptops speakers with "easy effects" but some peeps have gone to great length to create a profile for the framework laptops:
community.frame.work/t/guide-f…
and
github.com/FrameworkComputer/l…
[GUIDE] Framework DSP — better Linux audio
Framework Communitybeeng
in reply to Eugenia • • •Dell Precision 5570
Its what I got from work, its pretty nice quality I have to say.
Usually a functional thinkpad guy, but the screen, trackpad, build, specs, all very good. Keyboard could be better but if you're coming from a Mac then it will be just fine.
5480 is the 14" apparently.
Eugenia
in reply to beeng • • •Ulrich
in reply to Eugenia • • •It definitely doesn't. What it does require is a bit of RAM, which Apple intentionally sold in insufficient quantities for thousands of dollars, and judging by local classified boards, that's almost exclusively what everyone bought.
AMD is and has been the superior processor for quite some time now, both in speed and efficiency.
Well...you are severely limiting your options there. I've never even seen Intel mobile GPUs, personally.
Yeah that's gonna be very tough also.
You're looking for a niche product, which, if it even exists, will have niche pricing.
Unless you're willing to make compromises somewhere, I don't think you're going to.
I can tell you I recently got a Lenovo Yoga Pro, and it rivals Apple in terms of build quality. It has the best laptop keyboard I've ever used, by a longshot.
Hexadecimalkink
in reply to Eugenia • • •unfinished | 🇵🇸
in reply to Eugenia • • •I was in a very similar situation when shopping for my current laptop so here are my thoughts: I set out looking for a lightweight and relatively powerful 13" Linux laptop and ended up with an M4 MacBook Air. Despite what a lot of people wanna say, the MacBook Air is one of the best deals you can get for an ultrabook, especially on these newer generations, as others I've looked at struggle to compete in performance per watt while at the same price point and with lower build quality. Seems to me that with the requirements you've listed, you will have to compromise on a few things if you want the advantages of running Linux.
The FW13, best fit I can think of, is a wonderful machine, you will probably have a good time with it, but it certainly does not have as good of a build quality, battery life nor UX refinement as a MacBook. The difference isn't massive but it is there. These are common compromises when you buy into more ethical tech.
www-gem
in reply to unfinished | 🇵🇸 • • •I was about to suggest the framework as well, but I don't have to 😀
I would just add that the build quality is at least equal to any mainstream brand like Dell or Lenovo, and you also gain in reapairability/upgradability which will make this laptop last forever (every single piece is replaceable) or upgradable for a fraction of the price of a new laptop.
I wrote a first impression and 2.5 months review if you're interested.
New laptop: Framework 13. The last one?
www-gem wordsZucca
in reply to Eugenia • • •Hi. Typing this on M2 Air, running Gentoo. 👋
The limited ports drive me crazy too, but what's maybe EVEN MORE frustrating, is the glossiness of the screen. It is not that good to be used outside, especially because it is dust and finger print magnet. I'm constantly wiping the screen. One thing that smudges the display seems to be the fact that some parts of the base touches the display when the lid is closed. Bad design, or I may just have a faulty specimen.
The touchpad is needlessly big, but isn't really a problem. My wrist can't bend so that I could move my finger easily from corner to corner. 😁 Touchpad haptic stuff is nice when dragging. Keyboard is... meh. Nothing special.
Then there's the money problem. You have to spend ridiculous amounts of money to jump off from the base model. I have 256GB/8GB model. The least I should have accepted is 16Gigs of RAM.
I got this Air for only for 300 euros (luck was involved), so a money well spent to get to know current Apple HW. But still... I feel I barely made a good deal (because my last laptop was Matebook D with the same amount of RAM and 1TB NVMe SSD). I'll keep using this until I cannot cope with the amount of RAM anymore.
Battery life, performance and passively cooled CPU are the main highlights. Oh and the DAC can drive high impedance heaphones (I have Beyerdynamic DT-770 250 Ohm).
I'm most disappointed to the display. The LCD under the glass is fine, but the glass itself is just horrible design. From now on: I choose only matte displays.
I think you're much better off with Framework. I think that'll be eventually my choice too.
tiz
in reply to Eugenia • • •elver
in reply to Eugenia • • •Maybe a Starbook from Starlabs?
starlabs.systems/pages/starboo…
Or a V54 from NovaCustom?:
novacustom.com/product/v54-ser…
Or a Jupiter Pro from Juno Computers?:
junocomputers.com/product/jupi…
Or InfinityBook Pro 14 from Tuxedo?:
tuxedocomputers.com/en/TUXEDO-…
None of them are ticking every box but worth a look.
Jupiter 14" PRO v3 - Juno Computers UK
Juno Computers UKdata1701d (He/Him)
in reply to Eugenia • • •FYI, 14” is sort of the new 13.3”. A lot of newer 14” laptops are the about size of an older 13.3” laptop, but just have less bezel.
Same situation as with 16” vs 15.6”.
stupid_asshole69 [none/use name]
in reply to Eugenia • • •On the off chance that you’re still reading responses to this post:
I repair electronics, everything from automotive to industrial to audio to computers and phones. Not just screwdriver work either, bga rework and microscopic trace repair. I’m speaking from years of hands in experience with lots of computers, tablets, phones, amplifiers, plcs, ecus, and anything else you can think of plus countless hours of exercise helping people figure out what to buy, weather to repair, what to change and how a failure happened.
Get the mac.
You are describing the choice as being between the linux support level and the quality of other laptops. One is constantly improving, currently only falling short of your expectations due to requiring the existence of the computers native os and requiring you to maybe compile some stuff, the other begins below your expectations and cannot meet them. No one’s gonna push a free update that fixes the fit and finish or shitty trackpad of a computer.
Get the hardware you need.
Also, macs are secretly extremely repairable. People don’t like that they can’t just get in there and fuck around with a jewelers screwdriver and guitar pick, but it’s easy to find a qualified shop around you to fix whatever’s wrong with the computer. There’s always tons of replacement parts available, first party support docs (for shops that can prove they are real businesses) and third party info of all kinds.
Eugenia
in reply to stupid_asshole69 [none/use name] • • •