friendica.eskimo.com
Hey folks. I've had an on-again, off-again relationship with Linux for over 20 years. Usually, my attempts to use it are either thwarted by issues installing, issues booting, or general problems while using it... leading to “catastrophic failure” that I can't fix without digging into hours of research and terminal commands.
Windows 11 (even 10) are rock solid for me, even as a very heavy multitasker. No crashes. No needing to reboot, unless I'm forced to with an update, and really no issues with any hardware or software I was running.
But with Linux, I just can't believe how unstable it is, even when I do the absolute basic things.
I'm trying to learn why this is, and how I can prevent these issues from coming up. As I said, I'm committed to using Linux now (I'm done with American software), so I'm open to suggestions.
For context, I'm using a Framework laptop, which is fully (and officially) supports Fedora and Ubuntu. Since Fedora has American ties, I've settled with Ubuntu.
All things work as they should: fingerprint scanner, wifi, bluetooth, screen dimming, wake up from suspend, external drives, NAS shared folders, etc. I've even got VirtualBox running Windows 11 for the few paid software that I need to load up from time to time.
But I'm noticing issues that seemingly pop out of nowhere on the software/os end of things.
For example, after having no issues updating software, I get this an error: "something went wrong, but we're not sure what it is."
Then sometimes I'll be using Firefox, I'll open a new tab to type in a search term or URL, and the typing will "lag", then the address bar will flicker like it's reloading, and it doesn't respond well to my mouse clicks. I have to close it out, then start over for it to resolve.
Then I'll open a different app, sometimes it might open, sometimes it won't.
Or an app will freeze for no obvious reason, and I'll get a popup asking to wait or quit.
Another time I left my computer while I went out for a walk, came back, and it was like I just rebooted... all my work was gone, and it was starting fresh from the login screen.
I'm trying not to overload things, and I'm doing maybe 1/5th of what I'd normally be doing when running windows. But I don't understand why it's so unstable.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
FWIW, I'm not keen to switch away from Ubuntu, because I do still want official support if there's ever a problem with getting hardware to work.
UPDATE: Wow, I did not expect to get so many responses! Amazing!
Per suggestions, I ran a memtest86 for over 3 hours and it was clean.
I installed Fedora 41 and am now setting it up. Seems good so far, and elevated permissions can be authorized with biometrics! This was not something I had to. Ubuntu, so awesome there!
Any specific tips for Fedora that I should know? Obviously, no more Snap packages now! 😂
UPDATE 2: Ok, Fedora seems waaaay more stable than Ubuntu (and Mint). No strangeness like before... but not everything works as easily. For example, getting a bridged network adapter to work in virtualbox was one-click easy on Ubuntu... not so much on Fedora (still trying to get it working). And Virtualbox didn't even run my VM without more terminal hackery.
But the OS seems usable, and I'm still setting things up.
One thing I have noticed, however. When I search for how to fix or do something, nearly all websites and forums reference Debian/Ubuntu commands, so the fragmentation there is a little annoying
Just FYI. My family has used linux for 25 years on many systems and we do not have stability issues. We use mostly Ubuntu or Debian.
Have no idea why your having issues. Could distro or hardware related. Also are you sure your storage media is good.
Just FYI. My family has used linux for 25 on many systems and we do not have stability issues. We use mostly Ubuntu or Debian.Have no idea why your having issues. Could distro or hardware related. Also are you sure your storage media is good.
This has been my experience with Linux over at least six different laptop and desktop PCs. As I said, I've been dabbling for decades, and always have to go back to windows because of how Linux crashes and burns for me.
Then again, I do usually stick to Ubuntu and distros based off it, so maybe that's my problem. LOL
Just thinking what possibilities. Some thoughts.
Not sure what else.
Use packages installed from the standard repo and supported by the security team.
Can you be more specific? Does this mean use snap packages? Debian packages? Flatpak (which isn't even officially supported without installing some extra packages to begin with)?
Snap packages seem to be hated for their instability, so it could be related to that.
I use primarily debs but if your using Ubuntu it will include Ubuntu supported snaps.
Installing random stuff not distro support contains a lot of addition risks such as potentially more bugs and malware.
I think the only 3rd party program I have installed is an AppImage og Joplin. I found the snap buggy.
Can you explain? I mean, anything is better than a Microsoft OS, tbh.
But I'd rather avoid American-based distros if I can.
I’d say Fedora is one of the best distros even the founder of Linux uses it. It’s FOSS like all of Linux, people can see if there’s an issue. Ubuntu has made a lot of decisions recently such as pushing snaps that people dislike. Most big name distros are connected to corporate funding, that’s how they continue to be maintained. Finally, Canonical being British owned certainly doesn’t make it better, possibly worse privacy wise.
Edit: conflating big American tech firms that steal your data with big America tech firms that make FOSS is just silly.
That's a good idea also snaps can run like hell in general but more so if memory is out of wack.
Also if they did pay for support what did canonical have to say?
That's what I was thinking too... If they're running Ubuntu then they're probably installing packages through snaps, and that's always been the worst experience for me. Those apps lag down my whole system, crash or lock up, and generally are unusable. I run Debian but have run into apps that wanted me to use a snap install. One package I managed to find a direct installer that is rock-solid in comparison to the snap version, and the rest of the programs I abandoned.
Firefox (since it was mentioned) is one of those things I believe Ubuntu installs as a snap, despite there being a perfectly usable .deb package. I applaud the effort behind snap and others to make a universal installation system, but it is so not there yet and shouldn't be the default of any distro.
Agreed on Debian stable. Long ago I tried running servers under Ubuntu... that was all fine until the morning I woke up to find all of the servers offline because a security update had destroyed the network card drivers. Debian has been rock-solid for me for years and buying "commercial support" basically means paying someone else to do google searches for you.
I don't know if I've ever tried flatpaks, I thought they basically had the same problems as snaps?
Na flatpaks are lighter and have better access control. But I only use them for basic applications like games or spotify or Obsidian
They are a little heavy on disk space but nothing too bad. They don't trash your block device layout with bind mounts
If you want to try a distro that can just work for you, instead of reading about it, do this:
They are both from the Universal Blue family of distros which are based on Fedora Silverblue.
They are all immutable and atomic. They won't break. They will be more stable than windows. It will be easy. And it will come with batteries included.
Also, if you do gaming and are also a developer, there's bazzite-dx which will be releasing soon.
What so you mean by unstable? I don't get what this means. Install? Perhaps choosing a graphical install if available for your distribution of choice. I've heard nice things about Mint (can't tell, I'm using Artix, and Guix is in my plans).
That said, US or EU are not that different. Actually the EU is little by little deteriorating the data privacy it used to say it protected, but moreover, even if the data is kept in EU, what does it prevent US gov or corps to get access to the data? Did people forget about the 5 eyes, the extended ones (not sure how many, there were several extensions)? Did people forget that no matter the current differences, the EU and the US are allies (not just politically) any ways?
Linux (kernel) itself has already identified itself as a US org, since it complies with the US requirements and law, to the point of banning developers from countries the US doesn't like to be cooperating with US orgs (whether gov or not).
So, focusing on country based software developers shouldn't be the main motivation. Looking for free/libre software if possible, so that you get some freedoms of yours sort of intended to be protected through licenses, or if not available then open source, is what we should be looking for. On top of that, communication software should be e2ee, and if possible distributed or peer to peer, or at least decentralized, and so on. Also we tend to forget that the data kept in the cloud is no longer yours anymore, no matter the cloud, neither the country, and if in need to keep personal data on some cloud we should make sure it's encrypted, but still the data keeps being the cloud owner hands, so having personal backups is important, and clouds usually don't advertise what metadata they leak.
Having said that Fedora sounds OK to me while Ubuntu sounds too commercial to me and actually now a days looking for users to get packages from its own "app store". Instead of the "country of origin" for a distro, perhaps more importantly it is to see what your needs are, for example do you prefer rolling release vs. stable releases? Do you prefer vanila kind of packages (as close to upstream as possible) or your fine with the distro making changes to the upstream software as that serves better your purposes? How user friendly the distro is? Though perhaps you're out of options if the framework laptop requires firmware or patches not found upstream, then you might better stay with the "officially supported" distros, unless what you miss by not having such firmware or patches is something you can live with, but usually x86 laptops are "easily" used with gnu+linux on top, except for some drivers not fully working with your hardware or missing firmware, but people usually still uses those laptops with gnu+linux on top. For arm laptops (I believe framework has laptos with arm CPUs, and actually is offering some initial ones with risc-v cpus) that tends to be a little more involved and I personally have no experience with that, and actually I'm waiting for a cheap enough and not so low level risc-v laptop or mini-pc to start experimenting with it (not all distributions support arm and even less risc-v).
Again, I've heard nice things of Mint, particular for people new to gnu+linux, and it's not a rolling release distribution. Though I'm one of those thinking that rolling relase distributions are easy to live with, at least not on the server spectrum (there are actually servers running on top of rolling release distributions such as Arch, but that's not the majority of them) given they can't afford reboots (very few updates actually require reboot on gnu+linux, linux/kernel itself being one of those which better get a reboot ASAP but not necessarily immediately) or changes requiring a service to drop even for a little while. But with rolling releases one doesn't have to deal with big differences between distribution major versions upgrades, and the changes requiring using intervention when upgrading packages are distributed on time, so no need to focus on a lot of them at once.
Just my two cents, 😀
You need to stop worrying about “official support.” You aren’t a business so it doesn’t matter for you. There is more support out there online for free than you realize. There’s nothing magical framework does for you that doesn’t get ported out everywhere else eventually anyway. Stop limiting yourself like that.
That being said, Ubuntu is built in Debian. Debian is an incredibly solid and stable distro. Ubuntu does do a few questionable things with it but it’s still very reliable. If you have problems with stability, it’s very unlikely Ubuntu is the problem unless you did something so incredibly stupid to it support wouldn’t help you anyway.
I have a theory. Windows can dance around memory corruption issues in ways Linux just refuses to do. Windows will misbehave in strange ways trying to make things work until it just can’t anymore. Linux is more of a binary thing. It works or it doesn’t. It’s not going to play pretend for you. It refuses. Linus has an obscene hand gesture for your hardware.
I want you to get a copy of memtest86+ and boot it off a flash drive. Then just let it beat the shit out of your CPU and ram for a couple hours.
Great guidance here, but if you tire of trying to fix Ubuntu try a different distro before you give up.
Lots of people swear by Ubuntu, but for others (like me) it's nothing but trouble. For instance, I get errors when running the latest version of Ubuntu on a current laptop that runs Debian 12 perfectly, and a previous Ubuntu load on one of our laptops (tried with a new SSD) had so many issues that I gave up and restored the Mint backup.
By contrast, we have 2 different laptops and one old desktop that run Linux Mint almost flawlessly. "Almost" means a system lock up every 3-4 months and the inability to wake from sleep for the desktop. Debian 12 was a bit more difficult to get fully working, but since the initial install it has been been completely stable with zero problemsl. We have one laptop that is running Windows 11 and it has more problems than any of the Linux machines.
Fixing problems is a great way to learn, but if it's not the way you want to spend your time consider installing something else. Unless you have a hardware issue you should be able to find a distro that has few or none of the problems you're fighting with.
Running a framework 16 with FedoraKDE and before that a 4gb ram 2015 toshiba satellite (in 2024) running Fedora (regular Gnome) and haven't had one of these issues. Most issues I have had were caused by me, every now and again I run into a regular old bug in something and half the time that gets fixed pretty quick.
I wish I could help, but we just have opposite experiences unfortunately. That said, because of this I don't think it's "linux," or I'd likely have at least similar experiences.
OH for a while I did have a bug where VLC would stutter playing video and nobody had a fix, so I uninstalled/reinstalled VLC and it works now. Idk, I've had shit like that happen on windows too though, it's basically the software version of power cycling hardware when it acts up.
Atomic distro sounds like an interesting way to avoid breakage due to admin/user mistakes, so it's a good suggestion. But it doesn't help much with bugs in new software releases.
So the best choice depends on what exactly caused instability in OP's case.
I honestly think mint is an outdated suggestion for beginners, I think immutability is extremely important for someone who is just starting out, as well as starting on KDE since it’s by far the most developed DE that isn’t gnome and their… design decisions are unfortunate for people coming from windows.
I don’t think we should be recommending mint to beginners anymore, if mint makes an immutable, up to date KDE distro, that’ll change, but until then, I think bazzite is objectively a better starting place for beginners.
The mere fact that it generates a new system for you on update and lets you switch between and rollback automatically is enough for me to say it’s better, but it also has more up to date software, and tons of guides (fedora is one of the most popular distros, and bazzite is essentially identical except with some QoL upgrades).
How common is the story of “I was new to linux and completely broke it”? that’s not a good user experience for someone who’s just starting, it’s intimidating, scary, and I just don’t think it’s the best in the modern era. There’s something to be said about learning from these mistakes, but bazzite essentially makes these mistakes impossible.
Furthermore because of the way bazzite works, package management is completely graphical and requires essentially no intervention on the users part, flathub and immutability pair excellently for this reason.
Cinnamon (the default mint environment) doesn’t and won’t support HDR, the security/performance improvements from wayland, mixed refresh rate displays, mixed DPI displays, fractional scaling, and many other things for a very very long time if at all. I don’t understand the usecase for cinnamon tbh, xfce is great if you need performance but don’t want to make major sacrifices, lmde is great if you need A LOT of performance, cinnamon isn’t particularly performant and just a strictly worse version of kde in my eyes from the perspective of a beginner, anyway.
I have 15 years of linux experience and am willing to infinitely troubleshoot if you add me on matrix.
i agree that immutable distros are good for beginners and this is especially true for users who are not exactly tech savvy or don't want to mess with their systems, but i don't think the features that cinnamon misses are that important to as many users as you think there are
HDR is nice but not everyone can afford it, and mixed refresh rate displays might be important for gamers and desktop users but not as much in a laptop ( and yes i know that high refresh rates drain the battery but why would you game on battery anyway ), mixed DPI displays ??? only a small subset of users have those. yes the OP is a heavy multitasker but again he is using a laptop (but having support is nice)
however what i do agree with is that fractional scaling is awful in cinnamon and the reason i consider it a serious problem is that high res displays are now common and fractional scaling directly affects user experience
Yeah but there's so many more reasons to choose kde over cinnamon, there is a massive disparity in security between the two, KDE uses wayland by default, and as a result is SIGNIFICANTLY more secure, just off the top of my head, here's some problems with cinnamon that will not be resolved anytime soon, that have all already been resolved by this transition KDE-side:
and in the future the disparity will only go up, just as an example, look at the rate of development on KDE based distros vs cinnamon... cinnamon is entirely outclassed. The KDE team is massive, the cinnamon team is a few people with no real funding. ( if you don't believe me, here are the stats for the last month cinnamon side: github.com/linuxmint/cinnamon/… vs github.com/KDE/plasma-desktop/… although you'll note kde isn't developed on github and that's just a mirror. It's not even close, cinnamon has less monthly than 1/10th of the weekly for kde. The KDE text editor alone outpaces all of cinnamon dramatically, github.com/KDE/kate/pulse ) The rate of code output and refinement is not even close. The level of customization you can do with KDE vs cinnamon isn't even comparable. If you run into an issue with cinnamon, you're SOL, whereas KDE can actually worry about your bugs, because they have so many more developers.
I have tried giving people cinnamon, it has gone disasterously, usually due to DPI problems. But I don't think it's a safe recommendation at all, just given the security issues. Also mixed dpi displays are extremely common, many people have 1 4k and 1 1080p screen, for example, or maybe they plug into a tv... it's much more common than you think.
In short, i think the only reasonable recommendations for beginners in terms of desktop environments, are KDE or Gnome (if they're mac users and are willing to learn something different), unless their hardware is TERRIBLE and old, in which case they might want lxqt or xfce, maybe.
Advanced text editor. Contribute to KDE/kate development by creating an account on GitHub.GitHub
first this is not a criticism of kde. use what ever you want i just want to keep expectations within the realm of reality.
now about the security issues, afaik those problems exists because X11 not cinnamon specifically which is why cinnamon for Wayland exists ( it's gonna take WAY longer to mature than KDE), but i don't think that this is a big problem for most for now since our user base is small so there is much less malware and targeted attacks (well as long as you are not a high profile employee at a company with vast data access privileges )
the mixed dpi displays is a fair point too, i do that sometimes and i would say that i used it more than the people i know who might used it once or twice for a PowerPoint representation or something. programmers, gamers, graphical designers are peanuts compared to office work and regular users ( watching youtube, arguing on the internet etc)
i don't understand what you mean exactly by performance when talking about a DE ( responsiveness, ram and cpu usage ? ...). in terms of cpu and ram usage i'm pretty sure that kde consumes more and in terms responsiveness i would assume that kde is better but how much ( a difference between 5 s and 2 s is huge but from let's say 80 nanosecond to 60 is just for benchmarks and won't be noticed in real world usage)
what really holds us back is the lack of commercial software compatibility and at least decent alternatives compared to industry standards
oh yeah, and nvidia drivers + wifi and bluetouth
but i don’t think that this is a big problem for most for now since our user base is small so there is much less malware and targeted attacks (well as long as you are not a high profile employee at a company with vast data access privileges )
Security is not as huge of a problem on linux as it is on windows for sure. But EVERY SINGLE proprietary app you use can snoop on EVERYTHING. and I do not trust proprietary apps, beginners especially will use a ton of proprietary software. Remember that we're recommending to a beginner, not a linux evangelist who is willing to do anything to make linux/foss work for them.
i don’t understand what you mean exactly by performance when talking about a DE ( responsiveness, ram and cpu usage ? …). in terms of cpu and ram usage i’m pretty sure that kde consumes more and in terms responsiveness i would assume that kde is better but how much ( a difference between 5 s and 2 s is huge but from let’s say 80 nanosecond to 60 is just for benchmarks and won’t be noticed in real world usage)
If you use KDE on a laptop from like 2002 it will be a HORRIBLE experience, they use way too much ram, way too much rendering (with animations and whatnot), absolute cpu and gpu hogs for a machine from back then. that's pretty much the reason xfce and lxde exist. It'll also be real bad on cinnamon. Maybe this is better now, I haven't tried in a while.
The only reason I see for a beginner not to choose KDE over xfce is if they have a laptop from the 32 bit era. Elsewise, KDE if you use windows, Gnome if you use macos. The development speed alone and the fact that they have proper funding means in 20 years they'll probably still be around, cinnamon development is nearly dead by comparison, we shouldn't be encouraging people to use significantly less supported software unless there's a compelling reason, and for cinnamon, there really just isn't. People won't want to relearn everything when cinnamon breaks for them, might as well start on the most well supported stuff for all hardware.
I personally don't use KDE, but I don't think we should be recommending anything but gnome/kde to beginners without very good reason. Sure, use whatever you want, but that isn't a valid course of action for someone who doesn't even know where to start, and the obvious answer for where to start is KDE.
Honestly, your usage of linux since 1999 is why I don't trust you know what's best for beginners. I give tons of people linux, mostly the elderly, cinnamon has been an absolutely terrible experience for them. You're highly experienced and used to something that works for you, the best choice for beginners changes more than you do.
but what it does, it does well.
Can you not say this about fedora/bazzite?
The same can not be said about other distros in conjunction to care-free users.
The very purpose of an immutable distro is to stop carefree users from doing exactly that, until mint makes an immutable distro, it simply isn't the best choice for beginners.
Do they not care about mixed refresh rate displays, mixed dpi displays, the security issues involved in x11, etc? I think they will prefer if those things just work. Mint doesn't have that, sure what works works well, but that's true for fedora/bazzite too... and more works.
Can I just say thank you for offering help like this. I have wanted to switch to Linux for years, but due to proprietary software I simply must use I can't.
If I ever get away from needing this software can I take you up on the offer?
What is matrix lol
it's essentially a federated messenger, just like lemmy is a federated reddit.
It's likely you can get that proprietary software working, if you want to try.
My username is on my profile!
Element is a Matrix-based end-to-end encrypted messenger and secure collaboration app. It’s decentralised for digital sovereign self-hosting, or through a hosting service such as Element Matrix Services.element.io
Mint
I honestly think mint is an outdated suggestion for beginners, I think immutability is extremely important for someone who is just starting out, as well as starting on KDE since it’s by far the most developed DE that isn’t gnome and their… design decisions are unfortunate for people coming from windows.
I don’t think we should be recommending mint to beginners anymore, if mint makes an immutable, up to date KDE distro, that’ll change, but until then, I think bazzite is objectively a better starting place for beginners.
The mere fact that it generates a new system for you on update and lets you switch between and rollback automatically is enough for me to say it’s better, but it also has more up to date software, and tons of guides (fedora is one of the most popular distros, and bazzite is essentially identical except with some QoL upgrades).
How common is the story of “I was new to linux and completely broke it”? that’s not a good user experience for someone who’s just starting, it’s intimidating, scary, and I just don’t think it’s the best in the modern era. There’s something to be said about learning from these mistakes, but bazzite essentially makes these mistakes impossible.
Furthermore because of the way bazzite works, package management is completely graphical and requires essentially no intervention on the users part, flathub and immutability pair excellently for this reason.
Cinnamon (the default mint environment) doesn’t and won’t support HDR, the security/performance improvements from wayland, mixed refresh rate displays, mixed DPI displays, fractional scaling, and many other things for a very very long time if at all. I don’t understand the usecase for cinnamon tbh, xfce is great if you need performance but don’t want to make major sacrifices, lmde is great if you need A LOT of performance, cinnamon isn’t particularly performant and just a strictly worse version of kde in my eyes from the perspective of a beginner, anyway.
I have 15 years of linux experience and am willing to infinitely troubleshoot if you add me on matrix.
One thing I have noticed, however. When I search for how to fix or do something, nearly all websites and forums reference Debian/Ubuntu commands, so the fragmentation there is a little annoying
I'm using Nobara, which is based on Fedora, so I hear you, but the only thing you really need to do is learn enough about DNF to translate "apt" commands in your head.
And maybe set up a few aliases you're used to.
A new language? It's one app.
And if you learn it, you are back to the same level of usage, not "okayish".
But yeah, no one HAS to move from Ubuntu/Debian to another flavor. (Which is what OP is talking about).
No one has to move off Win 11, either, if that pain doesn't make it worth it to them.
I'll likely be downvoted for this, but if you're committed to Linux, you might want to reconsider using Ubuntu (or Fedora for that matter). Ubuntu has a well-earned reputation for trying to make things "easy" by obfuscating what it's doing from the user (hence that useless error message). They're also a corporate distro, so their motivations are for their profit rather than your needs (wait 'til you had about Snap).
A good starting distro is Debian (known for stable, albeit older) software. It's a community Free software project and the 2nd-oldest Linux distro that's still running as well as the basis for a massive number of other distros (including Ubuntu). The installer is straightforward and easy too.
Or if you're feeling ambitious, I'd recommend Arch or Gentoo. These distros walk you through the install from a very "bare metal" perspective with excellent documentation. Your first install is a slog, but you learn a great deal about the OS in the process, ensuring that you have more intimate knowledge when something goes wrong.
FWIW Debian isn't a non profit. Debian is not a legal entity period. It receives funds via the Software in the Public Interests, which also holds the copyrights, but the project itself just is. It's probably the world largest, longest running, self organized affiliation group.
Also debian testing is a fine rolling release. maybe sometimes a bit slow on security updates, but for a workstation that isn't exposed to the internet, and using flatpaks for browser it's mostly a non issue. That can also be mitigated by installing security updates from Sid. And secure-testing release take care of the most critical issues as well. If you avoid the couple's weeks right before and after the freeze, it's generally stable enough.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonpro…
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