@Colman @yogthos

Yes, I took that as the background implication, but unstated....

@Colman @yogthos

No I agree, I had inferred a recognition of a similar critique of the US, but as @Colman has pointed out that was likely more me than the writer... but yes, for me there are three very dangerous 'superpowers' - US, China & Russia - all dangerous in different ways but dangerous nonetheless

@Colman what specifically makes China a dangerous power in your mind?

Is it the fact that they haven't been at war since the 70s, or that China has had the fastest rise in the standard of living the humanity has ever seen, the fact that China is actively helping Global South develop, or perhaps that China is the only major nation actually transitioning off fossil fuels in a meaningful way?

@yogthos @Colman

Its an interesting point; people in Taiwan might differ on your notion of war avoidance (although as yet not happened, obviously); helping the Global South is really (like the US' prior work) hardly disinterested, but that, of course is politics, and while the green transition is notable they're still high up on the lost of emitters (by virtue of the economy's size).... but I agree, there is little specific about the danger of China that one might not also say about the USA!

@Colman Taiwan is a province of China last I checked as recognized by the UN, and even the US officially.

You're simply creating a false equivalence between China and the US. China has been consistently a force for positive change in the world, while the US has a been a force of destruction. These are indisputable facts of the situation.

@yogthos @Colman

well they're hardly 'indisputable facts' or we wouldn't be having this discussion - I think there are a lot of people both in China & in its neighbouring states who would disagree is been 'constantly a force for positive change'... in the same way, many might point to some (and I emphasis comes) actions of the US in the past that have also been positive - i think rather you are establishing a false absolute dichotomy...

@Colman let's just look at a few facts then to make this discussion more concrete.

Over the past 40 years, the number of people in China with incomes below $1.90 per day – the International Poverty Line as defined by the World Bank to track global extreme poverty– has fallen by close to 800 million. With this, China has contributed close to three-quarters of the global reduction in the number of people living in extreme poverty. worldbank.org/en/news/press-re…

Lifting 800 Million People Out of Poverty – New Report Looks at Lessons from China’s Experience

Over the past 40 years, China has lifted nearly 800 million people out of poverty, accounting for more than 75 percent of global poverty reduction in the same period, according to a new report released on Thursday.

^{World Bank Group}

@Colman 90% of families in the country own their home giving China one of the highest home ownership rates in the world. What’s more is that 80% of these homes are owned outright, without mortgages or any other leans. forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2…

Chinese household savings hit another record high in 2024 wsj.com/livecoverage/stock-mar…

People in China also enjoy high levels of social mobility nytimes.com/interactive/2018/1…

The American Dream Is Alive. In China.

Imagine two poor 18-year-olds, one in the U.S., the other in China. Who has a better chance of success? Are you sure?

^{The New York Times}

@Colman Real wage (i.e. the wage adjusted for the prices you pay) has gone up 4x in the past 25 years, more than any other country. This is staggering considering it’s the most populous country on the planet. youtube.com/watch?v=Cw8SvK0E5d…

In fact, a typical Chinese adult is now richer than the typical European adult businessinsider.com/typical-ch…

From 2010 to 2019, the income of the poorest 20% in China increased even as a share of total income. data.worldbank.org/indicator/S…

Typical Chinese adult is now richer than average European: report

Credit Suisse released its 2021 Global Wealth Report this month, which estimates the wealth of households around the world.

^{Jyoti Mann (Business Insider)}

@Colman By the end of 2020, extreme poverty, defined as living on under a threshold of around $2 per day, had been eliminated in China. According to the World Bank, the Chinese government had spent $700 billion on poverty alleviation since 2014. nytimes.com/2020/12/31/world/a…

As a result, even as mainstream western media openly admits, Chinese government enjoys broad public trust and support.

newsweek.com/most-china-call-t…
csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacif…

Most in China Call Their Nation A Democracy, Most in U.S. Say America Isn't

Latana political research consultant Frederick Deveaux told Newsweek such studies "determine who is winning the battle of democracy in the eyes of the public."

^{Tom O'Connor (Newsweek)}

@Colman not only that, but vast majority of people in China see their country as both being democratic, and working in the interest of the people. Something that's not observed in any western nation.

bloomberg.com/opinion/articles…
web.archive.org/web/2023051104… images/Democracy Perception Index 2023.pdf
tbsnews.net/world/china-more-d…
web.archive.org/web/2020122913…

China is more democratic than America, say the people

"No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise," said Winston Churchill in 1947.

^{TBS Report (The Business Standard)}

@Colman Similarly, we can look at some facts on the clean energy transition.

China's has a concrete plan for becoming carbon neutral visualcapitalist.com/chinas-en…

A recent study found that short term use of coal is perfectly in line with that plan carbonbrief.org/chinas-2060-cl…

China already achieved its 2030 installed clean energy target in July 2024 climateenergyfinance.org/wp-co…

Wind and solar to surpass 40% of China’s power capacity by year-end scmp.com/business/commodities/…

Wind and solar to surpass 40% of China’s power capacity by year-end

China is making progress in cleaning up its act on cutting down the use of coal in its power generation mix, as the share of the dirty fuel falls below renewables for the first time.

^{Yujie Xue (South China Morning Post)}

@Colman The amount of wind and solar power under construction in China is now nearly twice as much as the rest of the world combined theguardian.com/world/article/…

China added as much new clean energy generation in the first half of this year as the UK produced from all sources in the same period last year theguardian.com/environment/ar…

Overall emissions in China are now in a structural decline theguardian.com/business/2023/…

China building two-thirds of world’s wind and solar projects

Country on track reach 1,200GW of installed wind and solar capacity by end of 2024 – six years ahead of Beijing’s target

^{Amy Hawkins (The Guardian)}

@Colman and looking at China's neighbours it's pretty clear that their views of China are overwhelmingly positive

statista.com/chart/32058/prefe…

pewresearch.org/global/2024/07…

In fact, practically all the countries with negative views of China are either in the global north or those under western influence, such as Japan, South Korea, and Philippines.

These are the concrete facts.

Southeast Asia's Preferred Ally Switches in Favor of China

This charts shows answers to the questions: "If ASEAN countries were forced to align themselves with one strategic rival, which should they chose?" among respondents from the respective countries.

^{Katharina Buchholz (Statista)}

@yogthos @Colman

OK, well I can appreciate you're very pro-China....

but here's Amnesty International's assessment:

amnesty.org.uk/issues/china?

So not all nice & rosy.... but you are right the raising on living standards & the green transition are key (global significant) achievements, but that doesn't mean the Chinese state is universally benign as you suggest.... but, if you think their military operations in the South China Sea area all just defensive, then all well & good, I suppose

China

We are Amnesty International UK. We are ordinary people from across the world standing up for humanity and human rights.

^{www.amnesty.org.uk}

@Colman I don't know why you're making this about me when I just listed basic facts of the situation we're discussing.

The whole freedom of expression thing isn't the gotcha you seem to think it is either. What matters are tangible freedom, such as freedom from poverty and the fear of illness or a lack of financial security in old age.

Having jester's privilege to scream into the void is not that impressive to me.

@yogthos @Colman

I'm only make it about you in that it is you assembling your argument(s), but also perhaps you're misunderstanding me... and if you read my other posts you'll see I am also critical of the US & the UK.... all I'm saying is that China is not an absolute force for good (which seems to be how you're presenting it) rather like the USA while one might point to some 'good works' there's also plenty of grim stuff going on too...

I cannot help where I live....

@Colman no human society has ever been an absolute force for good. China, like any society, has its own problems as well.

What I'm challenging is your claim that China is somehow a danger to the world. There is simply no evidence for that claim. Chin has developed peacefully, and has consistently pursued mutually beneficial relations with other countries.

@yogthos @Colman

Well, I think the answer will be clearer in the next decade, so one of us will be proved nearer correct.... until then we're seeing different things, which may be about where we sit, our own political commitments and of course which international organisations we give are weight too... such is the character of political disagreements. But I certainly appreciated the discussion, which was interesting

@Colman I think you're absolutely right, at the end of the day what matters is China does going forward. I agree it's easy for us to end up in our own bubbles and end up with very different understanding of the world based on the information we consume.

Whatever happens, the next decade will be very interesting to watch because we'll be seeing profound geopolitical realignments.

And apologies if I was bullish in the discussion.