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Part four a series – read parts one, two and three. Census 2028 is doing away with the usual population survey in favour of using admin data instead, requiring a Statistical Register It’s ini…
Capcom games always had very good soundtracks, which you can tell were made by talented people who wanted to make more than just cookie cutter video game background music. They are catchy and you remember them years after you played the games. It's really sad that this company has been completely corrupted by western parasites and also by their own greed.
I realized my VLC was broke some point in the week after updating Arch. I spend time troubleshooting then find a forum post with replies from an Arch moderator saying they knew it would happen and it's my fault for not wanting to read through pages of changelogs. Another mod post says they won't announce that on the RSS feed either. I thought I was doing good by following the RSS but I guess that's not enough.
I've been happily using Arch for 5 years but after reading those posts I've decided to look for a different distro. Does anyone have recommendations for the closest I can get to Arch but with a different attitude around updating?
Sorry for not answering your questions, I haven't used arch before. But dang that sucks I've been wanting to try arch for a little while but I didn't know they would happily push updates they know will break certain programs.
It's more like they expect you to do more reading than I would like to do. If I had been reading more of what they would like, I would have known I was expected to make a decision before updating and install an additional package. So from that view, they didn't push a breaking update.
I'd like to be able to take it all in but I can go weeks without the energy or interest to read a wall of text. Other times I'll start an update and lose interest while it downloads. I realize these are personal problems but that's why I value custom tools like Linux I can adapt to my needs and shortfalls.
It is an experimental distro, that's what was the original purpose. That's coming from what their website stated toward the beginning of the project. They may not call it that now, but not much has fundamentally changed in arch since that time besides the introduction of systemd.
Someone should inform whoever made that change. If a package is split in a new release, the initial state should match the final as closely as possible, in this case by installing the new optional dependencies automatically. (Although I'm not sure why they'd want to split everything out like that anyway; no other VLC distribution does that, so splitting is itself a violation.)
Maybe Manjaro might be an alternative? I haven't personally used it. I don't like this kind of surprise, so I stick to boring distros like Debian. I used to use CentOS but it was too boring.
You just gave me words for something that was previously just vague internal grumbling and emotions.
Manjaro knows how to aesthetically please me with their color choices and background art. I've got a negative impression from various podcasts and forum posts but I'm realizing I need to look into that more because I can't recall specifics besides something about a past issue with package distribution.
i would recommend against manjaro or endeavorOS and such similar arch based distributions. they’re neat and more stable but have similar issues sometimes, for example the manjaro maintainers are generally known as pretty egregiously irresponsible.
arch is kind of a clusterfuck. the user experience is really poor for a modern linux distribution and the community has an insular attitude of calling everything a skill issue.
i used and maintained a bunch of arch systems for a long time. if you do this you inevitably end up using AUR packages, as some utilities a normal person would use for home and server shit are only available through AUR. updating gets fucky and it’s way more annoying bc you end up needing to constantly read long ass changelogs bc some dude changed the formatting in one UI element and pushed to main at 3AM and it won’t just updated with -Syu or similar args.
i was talking about this earlier on lemmy as an example of terrible UX and all the arch fanboys came to downvote me and write paragraphs in droves talking about how it’s actually just the user’s fault for using the AUR and that i don’t know how pacman works. one guy claimed it’s like Debian PPAs. uh no, the AUR is far less optional lmfao. and i do know how yay and pacman work, i had no trouble, i was just pointing out it was annoying to deal with constantly when using a system like a normal person.
when an OS has no user in mind when designing it… its kind of a shit OS and apparently forms a shit culture around it too, in my experiences the past few years on the internet.
Manjaro is significantly worse with updates breaking.
I used for a little while in 2018 and again in 2019, both times ended because it once became stuck in a boot loop after updates, and another time couldn’t boot after updates.
the initial state should match the final as closely as possible, in this case by installing the new optional dependencies automatically
Sometimes. Some of us out there have use cases where we really, really don't want our systems making choices for us and would rather read the notes every time. One could equally well argue that an OS whose entire purpose is letting the user make the choice suddenly doing something automatically without asking for input is the break in state that users would find astonishing.
Maybe it's me, but while you have outlined the events that got you to this point, I don't understand either the 'attitude' you find problematic or what it is about Arch you would hope to find elsewhere. Hard to make a recommendation without those.
You're right, I was leaning heavily on the events to give context for defining the attitude (maybe policy would be a less loaded word for me to use). I don't like the expectation that I would have to look for information in multiple places before updating. I'd prefer to be able to update often without needing to take in a lot of information.
If your upgrade says anything out of the ordinary, which it most definitely did here, that should probably trigger something in you. This is the case for any distro.
Debians testing branch might be a good shout. Packages stay pretty up-to-date and usually stuff doesn't break. Worst case you can pull a package from unstable when needed.
I second Debian Testing. The only issues I have are updates slow down during package freezes and sometimes, a package you are using becomes a victim of a package transition. Both are symptoms of Testing being exactly what it says, so I can't blame them, but still a valid annoyance.
The worst example was FreeCAD had a dependency being transitioned, so FreeCAD disappeared from Testing for a while, meaning my system wouldn't update if I wanted to keep FreeCAD. In the end, I just gave up and used the Flatpak. (I probably could have installed from Unstable, but whatever.)
Truth be told, I kind of wish there was a project to keep some new packages flowing to Testing users during freezes. I get why Debian themselves doesn't do it - it would be a nightmare to maintain - but an outside community project would be amazing. It wouldn't exactly be easy, but such a project wouldn't need to necessarily do every package (just desired ones), and they would only need to maintain them a couple months until new versions start flowing into Testing again. I think the biggest difficulty is not going too far ahead of what will end up in Testing post-freeze.
There is a way to "pin" package versions isn't there?
I wonder if that would prevent this kind of thing from uninstalling a package that is in transition. Ofc, it wouldn't get any updates, but I'd take that over just not having the package.
Yeh. Also, Debian tends to hold back packages like that automatically. It’s just a really obnoxious thing to deal with for me, and Flatpak allows me to circumvent that.
Though truth be told, I’m thinking of just staying on Trixie once it hits stable. While Testing certainly has its uses and I rather love it, there’s simply times where I don’t want to deal with the odd system maintenance ordeals, as comparatively rare as they are relative to other rolling release distros. I’ve been rather enjoying Bookworm on my laptop for a year now, which makes me think I would enjoy it on desktop.
Arch is really for those who like to troubleshoot and actively maintain things when they break.
I’m pretty decent with linux and for the most part, I can fix arch when it breaks, but I don’t have the time for that. For that reason, I use Fedora and recommend mint.
Yup, OP has done his time in Arch meaning now competent, probably, time to go to Fedora and relax, close enough to the edge but not bleeding, good QA, For extra chill go atomic, check out uBlue...
Can you install an app with GUI in a distrobox that then shows up on the app list? That'd be amazing but I doubt it since it's using containerization, I wonder what "tightly integrated" really means. Anyway, I'll look it up, thanks!
I don’t understand this, I’ve been using arch for 3 years, I update every couple of days and I’ve never had anything break, is it an aur thing? I tend to stay away it
I did break my endevaourOS after I was unlucky enough to upgrade when grub got a huge non-bootable bug and probably there may have been some app bugs since which are minor tbh. Like currently I can't run the bauh app, because it misses "bauh" in the python packages (lol).
Good for you that EOS now runs on systemd-boot, not grub lol. It grabs the EFI lines automatically from the boot partition and it just works. Personally, booting should be as simple as possible, as little personalisation as possible, make it just work.
Yeah no hate towards grub, because it doesn't get too much breakful versions, but it's a bootloader after all. Systemd boot works just fine for me, although I miss the customization aspect of it, but that's what rEFInd is for.
I sometimes forget or delay updates because of life and have over 500 updates. Skim through them if they are patches, minors or majors, and just run. In any case, my disk's are brtfs and I have timeshift for backups. If anything breaks horribly a live USB can restore it, if anything is weird I can restore it via UI. It autoruns every time I run Pacman and stores 5 copies of the "before" state. It also creates a daily copy for the last 5 days so 10 copies in total.
It's more than enough that if something fails I'll have something to go back to, and since it internally works with something akin to hardlinks snapshots don't take that much space.
I've not had issues since setting it up, so, great.
Honestly NIXos. Run it impermanent or traditional OS style. If your coming from Arch and want less breakage and more declarative configuration. Immutable or not. Pick almost any DE and all you maintain is your nix config. Nix config is your master file its not huge and the machine runs from it as you tell it. The machine does the rest. No system drift, no cruft. Just works and if you break it. Select your previous generation at boot and your back exactly as you were before.
I don't mind trading upfront effort for stability. I enjoyed setting up Arch and I'm still benefiting from insights gained from choosing my setup packages there.
Having nearly latest versions of packages is important to me because I can get into a flow after the initial excitement of a new feature being released but if I have to wait long to get my hands on it that won't happen. In this case, a smaller loss of my excitement to watch a video happened in the time it took me to figure out what was up with VLC.
I like having Timeshift in place for if I can't figure out what went wrong.
In this case, I didn't use VLC until days after I had updated so my mind didn't go to an issue from updating right away. I make a high amount of accidental inputs while using laptops and I don't always notice so a lot of my issues end up being unintentional configuration changes from weeks or months ago.
I've been using Ubuntu/Kubuntu since 2004 and I've always been happy and had very little problems.
It's a good, no hassle distro that works and is fairly up to date, especially if you use the non-LTS ones. I prefer staying with LTS though. At least my OS is stable and I don't have to spend my free time troubleshooting anything.
My first experience with Linux was Ubuntu back in 2007! I thought it was interesting but didn't become a Linux user until 12 years later when I realized gaming was possible without dual booting.
Something I experience a lot is getting excited for new features. It gives me an energy I can use to start a project I wouldn't have done otherwise. I need to be able to start soon after hearing about the new feature or I risk losing the excitement and missing out on the energy it would have provided.
I used to be like that. I just get so tied from work, seeing computers and software all day and having to constantly learn new technology that at home I'm just looking for something that doesn't change too much and is familiar.
I'd recommend opensuse tumbleweed. Codecs can be a little weird, so I recommend installing a flatpak for VLC and your browser. Otherwise, I've found it to be a very similar experience.
If it is the rolling aspect OP likes about arch. Then absolutely. OpenSUSE Tumbleweed is amazing. But I do think something like Gentoo is more arch like in the sense that you got to do most things your self.
I've been enjoying Guix for the last 8 days. You declare your OS and home config in a file and you can check them into source control. It was originally a fork of NixOS, but has diverged a lot.
The CLIs and APIs are pretty nice. They have a concept of "channels", which are git repos you can download software from. The default official channel only hosts FOSS software, but you can trivially add non-FOSS channels and they work just as well as the first-party channels.
Each channel update and package install, removal, update get put on a log, which you can trivially jump between. guix package --switch-genereation=28 and boom you're at that generation (it's like a git commit). The software and config changes get saved in the generation so the jump is clean and atomic. I actually bisected my OS yesterday to track a bug! That was cool. You can also create and share isolated, reproducible environments.
Guix works with Flatpak and distrobox as well, in case some software isn't available in existing channels. I got HiDPI, Zoom, Logseq, Syncthing, and Tailscale working.
The biggest drawback for me so far is that it doesn't use systemd. Not sure if it's a dealbreaker for me yet. Systemd does way more than just manage system services, so GNU Shepherd (which Guix uses) isn't a real replacement.
Guix is a distribution of the GNU operating system.
Guix is technology that respects the freedom of computer users.
You are free to run the system for any purpose, study how it
works, improve it, and share it with the whole world.
I've been an Arch user for about 15 years now, and I've never posted to the forums. Not because I'm great at this and don't break things. I constantly break things and need to fix them. I don't ask questions there because before you'll get any help you are going to get sat down and explained (in great detail sometimes) how you are the stupidest piece of shit on Earth.
Interesting. Been an Arch user for about 12 years now. Your posts made me curious to check my forum post history. I have 4 Topics I started where I never got any reply or the only reply is from myself stating that I found a solution and what it is. Then I have 3 Topics where people actually engaged with me, asked for some more info gave some tips and pushed me in the right direction.
I enjoyed getting to pick out a lot of the small details by choosing what was going on my system. Something about having the minimum amount needed to meet my needs eases a variety of my computing related anxieties.
I've always managed to solve issues I've encountered but reading that forum post made me realize I may have been attributing issues from updates to Linux in general instead of my distro choice.
yeah, it is pretty fun, i used arch for a long time years ago and i liked it. but it's a huge commitment and you can't ever forget the system exists (which sometimes you need to do if you have a life)
What does this even mean? I had more problems with Fedora on my Notebook in the last few months (wouldn't randomly boot anymore?!) than I had with Arch Linux in 10 years.
i believe you. also, my great uncle has smoked since he was 13 and he's now 86 and is still alive
seriously, though, if you do everything right, arch is a great system. it is really well put together and very stable all things considered. the problem is the "doing everything right" part. what happened to op is pretty common if you stop reviewing your updates one by one for a week or two. if you're used to that, then arch is perfect. otherwise, it's a chore
that's a little besides the point. my point is that you have to always be ready, even if an actual intervention event takes a while to happen. you're used to it and/or got lucky, but the op is not the first person i see having issues like this and getting blamed for them because they should know better
arch only works if you think maintaining every detail of a linux system is fun, because you have to constantly know what you're doing and that's a huge commitment. stuff like what the op described is bound to happen if you ever get bored of it and decide not to pay much attention to the system one particular week
i really don't think that's true about arch, but in general i get that there is a spectrum of how much ppl want to be active in the maintenance of their computer.
i use EndeavourOS, but for my wife i give her Kalpa, which is atomic and much more "less fuss, just use computer."
maybe @makeitwonder would like an immutable distro.
What's your point of comparison, Ubuntu LTS? Arch does not require nearly as much upkeep or attention as you're claiming. Try setting up a Gentoo or NixOS system, or better yet just do Linux From Scratch, and come back to us.
I have been on Arch , and I'm now running NixOS as my daily driver... IMO NixOS is less of a hassle to set up, and nearly maintenance free compared to Arch... Twice a year when the channel updates there's a bit of stuff, but every change I need to make is usually explained in the output of my nixos-rebuild... If something suddenly breaks in an update, I just boot into my previous generation, roll back my flake.lock and wait a few days for a fix to be available...
Having dailied both as well, I only agree once you're over the very significant learning curve. And even then, I'd say initial setup is pretty similar, if not a bit easier on Arch.
Arch and NixOS are kind of like C and Rust. Arch/C give you the power and flexibility to do pretty much whatever you want, but also will let you do it in very stupid ways that will come back to bite you. NixOS and Rust give you the same amount of power, but with a higher barrier to entry that ensures you have a pretty good idea of what you're doing, which results in a much more stable experience.
I have dailied Arch and Debian unstable and they both took about as much effort. Arch is really not that complex, it just gives you access to some potential footguns. Also, Arch absolutely makes it clear that it's a more advanced distro -- that's the entire reason for the meme, although these days it's a lot simpler thanks mostly to the installers.
You're probably right, this is a issue that isn't unique to Arch. In this case, I would have been fine if a default had been chosen for people who didn't do the reading. Something like installing a plugin that will keep basic functionally of the app working.
I agree that reviewing terminal output is a valuable skill. I'm often lacking the attention or energy to pay attention to every update. I wish that wasn't the case because I believe I have higher than average emotional reactions when things go unexpectedly but the lack of attention -> unexpected event -> emotional reaction loop is a pattern of my life I've come to accept.
Please note that I wasn't passing judgement with my comment, I'm just stating that it will happen with pretty much all Linux distributions.
For example, when upgrading major Debian versions, the same will happen - but you'll usually get thrown into a full screen TUI with interactive buttons asking you how to proceed. So it isn't really possible to leave the system in a non-functional state.
Definitely check out a different, stability first distro. However, note that you will then have the problem of software being old when you want a new feature!
Rule of Thumb: if your use case is not satisfied by your current Distro, then move to the one that does.
Arch or rolling release distros are great if you want latest version of software/packages as soon as possible. Downside is you need to put more effort/time to maintain it by yourself.
On the other hand, fixed release distros (e.g. Debian) doesn't offer latest packages immediately. But, given that packages are tested for distro release, so you will have a more stable (in relative term) system for yourself with minimal effort.
I used to like rolling release distros on my college days as I had plenty of time back then. Now, I'm settled on fixed release ditro as it suits my current use case.
Would a flatpak would survive this update? I do use arch on some computers but with several flatpaks for some applications that I feel will be safer - but i don't really know.
The whole point of the update is to avoid the silly Windows-like mentality of flatpack. It splits the package up so you can choose what you want instead of installing a bunch of crap you won't ever use. If OP had been awake while doing a full upgrade on his bleeding edge system, he would have noticed.
The general advice is that handpicking updates from main repos is a big no-no. There are only a couple of reasons you would ever need that, like updating archlinux-keyring on a very outdated system.
Even on my 13 year old install with many thousands of packages, it's not hard to spot if anything is out of the ordinary when doing huge upgrades. You should pay attention.
That being said, I often just do pacman -Syu --noconfirm && poweroff these days. It's so rare that anything breaks and I can very easily fix it if it does.
I don't understand how Debian limits that. You can use Debian for your distribution BUT for whatever you want to be cutting edge, use whatever alternative method you want. It can be alternative package managers, e.g. am but if you want the absolute bleeding edge, go on the repository of the project, get a specific branch, build, install, use. That's absolutely no problem with even Debian stable.
I'm genuinely confused at comments implying that have a stable distribution means having outdated software.
For me, at least, that feeling is because I just like knowing my software is up to date. Only rarely do I come across an issue that is solved by a newer version, but that's just me I'm sure. I definitely see the appeal to not having to think about your desktop applications individually.
Sure, but that's kind of the old Windows way isn't it? Package managers are super nice in that everything is grouped together, and gets updated automatically.
The closest to Arch, a rolling cutting edge distro, is probably openSUSE Tumbleweed. openSUSE has excellent snapper integration that takes a snapshot before and after you touch zypper, so it's easy to undo changes that might ruin your system. CachyOS also has that same great snapper integration, but that's still Arch.
I can totally understand that. In case you still want to give it a chance, I can highly recommend EndeavorOS. It's basically pre-styled, pure Arch. But it has a welcome dialog, where you have a warning banner at the top if you need to be careful regarding an update. This directly links you to their Gitlab and forum with the steps you'd need to take to not break anything. This saved me multiple times already and I never broke my system, despite not even reading the Arch RSS feed or changelogs.
Besides the EndeavorOS forum is waaaay friendlier compared to the Arch one.
Endeavour forums helped when I upgraded during the 24 hours when Arch removed Amdgpu firmware. It did kind of make me wonder how many issues like that were present but that I've just dodged by random upgrade timing.
I prefer Debian-Testing. Basically, a rolling release, but not unstable. Arch is akin to Debian -Sid, which is unstable. The latest packages are brought in to -Sid after some rudimentary testing on -experimental. But only the stuff that make it and are solid on -sid, make it to -testing. Basically, Debian has 2 layers of siphoning bugs before they even make it to -testing. And that's why the -stable branch is so solid, because whatever makes it there, has to go through the 3 branches.
So if you like rolling releases with much newer packages, consider -testing. The easiest way is to wait for the Trixie release, and then do the manual update to -testing by changing the repository names (there are online tutorials about it). The other way is to get a -testing iso, but these usually are broken because most people "upgrade" their installed distro to testing instead of just install it outright.
I've been using -testing for over a year now with 0 problems. Even Google is using -testing internally! I also have had Arch installed and endeavouros, and have had 3 problems that I had to fix in 5 months.
Only after they meet the requirements to be moved from unstable.
From the wiki:
It is a good idea to install security updates from unstable since they take extra time to reach testing and the security team only releases updates to unstable.
and
Compared to stable and unstable, next-stable testing has the worst security update speed. Don't prefer testing if security is a concern.
There is some advice on that page about how to deal with security updates for testing and I'm wondering how people who use testing take that advice, and what changes they make to get security updates. Or maybe you don't bother. That's what I mean.
The other way is to get a -testing iso, but these usually are broken because most people “upgrade” their installed distro to testing instead of just install it outright.
I’ve installed Debian testing from ISO a handful of times and never had any issues.
Can definitely recommend Fedora too. Software updates are at a good pace, and the system has a lot of polish all around. For example, all you need to do for updates is to press "update" in Discover and it'll do everything for you, applying on reboot for stability. Most things "just work".
that's exactly how updates should work in every desktop distro. as an option of course.
systemd made it possible to install updates on shutdown. packagekit enabled kde software to automatically obtain and prepare the updates. plasma does the final touch nowadays to ask you on the reboot/shutdown dialog whether you want to install them.
Basically all the system is in place, with code from widely used parties. packagekit can even integrate with your filesystem to make a snapshot before install. It's wonderful. yet, it seems as if only fedora supports this full setup right now? or is there anything else?
I've tried quite a few distros (openSUSE, Ubuntu, Solus, Arch, so on) and none seem to offer this feature. It's a shame, as it's quite useful to have since updating a live system can sometimes cause some trouble. Even just the updating from Discover can be broken on some systems (I know openSUSE at the very least acts a bit funny when it comes to PackageKit, I think Arch as well).
I've been told that opensuse tumbleweed has it. I've also read a suse forum post saying leap 16 will support offline updates, releasing in January, so they could be the first to support all of this with fs snapshots
Even just the updating from Discover can be broken on some systems
if you didn't enable offline updates in systemsettings, then it'll do roughly the same as you would in the terminal, so that's not unexpected
The only issue is that you provide free testing for IBM, so it's a no go if you try to boycott/avoid US companies. If you don't it's indeed a great choice.
As long as they're not for the core Fedora projects why not? Bugs for those should be scarce and there are many other users to report them anyway.
Using and contributing to FOSS is hardly scabbing regardless. Unless you're donating to the project I wouldn't consider even bug reporting as directly supporting IBM. The tangible profit to them is pennies if that.
Telemetry, but I don't know if many Linux user doesn't turn it off. But I also don't know if many Linux user doesn't fill bug reports.
Also, if you use Fedora you may recommend it to people that will leave telemetry and/or file bug report. And you also contribute to make the red hat ecosystem relevant, potentially bringing paid customers for RHEL. It's a drop in the ocean of course, but personally I don't want to contribute to it.
vlc was already like this on arch for a long time, literally took just a moment to look at the optional dependencies and grab the latest "actually give me everything lmao" package group
I had the same problem, i did start with arch ,but man i remember doing a update after 4 days(4Gb of new updates) and my system faild to boot. From that moment i went debian route.
Based on what you describe, I would strongly recommend going with OpenSUSE Tumbleweed. It's just as bleeding-edge as Arch, but all packages go through automatic testing to ensure they won't break anything, and if some manual actions are required, it will offer options right before update. Moreover, snapper in enabled by default on btrfs partitions, and it makes snapshots automatically before updates, so even if something breaks somehow, reverting takes a few seconds.
One small footnote is that you'll need to add separate VLC repo or Packman for VLC to have full functionality - proprietary codecs are one of the rare things official repos don't feature for legal reasons.
On Arch rant: I've always been weirded out by this "Arch is actually stable, you just have to watch every news post for manual interventions before every update, oh, and you better update very often" attitude.
Like, no, this is not called stable or even usable for general audience. Updating your system and praying for it not to break while studying everything you need to know is antithetical to stability and makes for an awful daily driver.
you just have to watch every news post for manual interventions before every update, oh, and you better update very often
You have to watch the factory mailing list and make any manual interventions for Tumbleweed, and frankly, you should be watching the news and taking any action required no matter the os.
This is not really true for fixed release distros. I can’t remember when was the last time I had to read through the release note before Ubuntu version upgrade, or upgrading any package.
I used to think that, then I learnt the truth. Now-a-days, I say that you may as well use a rolling release because it's not really any more work that a fixed release and you have up to date software.
in fixed release, a package version is not released until all known issues are resolved.
That's not really true. It's more important that the issues are known. Sometimes they actually wait longer to fix issues since it would introduce changes
My bad, I meant "known major issues". If minor issues are not fixed, they document it on release note. But, at no point any fixed release distro ever released breaking changes "knowingly".
Ubuntu was by far the worst experience I have had in terms of updates destroying things. The number of times my post update reboot brought me back to a GRUB prompt, I'll never go back.
A decent daily driver distro for regular user should not break on blind update - at most, it should warn the user automatically before applying updates. If user is expected to check news every time they want to update their system - it is not a good fit for anyone but enthusiasts.
Anyone who is not curious enough to type yay -Pw before typing yay should probably stick with something like Windows. And even then, you should watch out for the rare manual intervention.
FFS dude. It's not lazy want updates to be as simple and pain free as possible. The entire point of these universal machines is to automate shit so we don't have to think about it so much. We have different distros to run them because people prefer different ways of doing things. The one you pick doesn't make you better or worse in any way. OP found out Arch is more work than they want to put up with for their daily driver and the benefits aren't worth the cost. That's a pretty big fucking club to be calling everyone in it lazy.
This kind of elitism is the most unnecessary, useless, vacuous, tedious horseshit and hurts Linux by pushing people away for nothing. Stop it.
I don't think it makes sense to gatekeep Linux only to those who has time, energy, and dedication to continuously check for necessary interventions and to familiarize themselves with all the terminal utilities in the first place.
That is a sort of elitism we need to carefully avoid - one, because otherwise it would halven the desktop Linux community, and two, because there's a huge group of people out there who need what Linux offers, but cannot dedicate themselves to it in the way enthusiasts do.
For them, there must be an option to push the button and get a smooth update, with everything resolved automatically or prompted in a user-friendly way. Arch is not that.
You feel comfy doing this - alright, no one stops you, Arch is great and has a purpose. But we should never put blame on users for not using their system The Arch Way™, because it's too technical, too engaged, and is just a poor fit for most. People will not and should not accommodate for this just to use their system. There's no need to.
If someone chose Arch and complains that it breaks things, it could be useful to point out Arch doesn't have required guardrails to make it operable in a way they expect, and direct the user to other distributions that have them and potentially least painful ways to migrate.
Having tried Arch and its derivatives, and recognizing their strong points, I can absolutely tell the person needs another distribution, and that's alright! Whatever fits anybody is up to them. And for stable rolling release experience without the need for manual checking (but also without some of the power features of Arch mainly geared toward enthusiasts) there's OpenSUSE Tumbleweed.
I don't use Arch, I use Endeavour because they took Arch and made it better. As to why I used yay as my example, there are two reasons:
It's what I use
It's nice to show how easy and simple it is when it's done properly and it normally takes 5 seconds, more when you have to do something. No wading through busy mailing lists hoping to spot an issue. I'm looking at you Debian and Tumbleweed!
I do, in fact, use Endeavour on my desktop as well, simply because I like snappiness and choice of Arch and similarly don't wanna bother with the pure one (and also EndeavourOS forums are more friendly in my experience). I run OpenSUSE Slowroll (an experimental Tumbleweed build, same idea as Manjaro, but actually done right) on my other laptop, so can speak from the experience on both ends.
With Slowroll (and my gf's Tumbleweed) I've only once faced the need for manual intervention, and it was simply to resolve a dependency change by choosing which package to leave - literally enter one number, and then it went on peacefully and correctly installing 1460 updates (yeah, they pushed a big Tumbleweed dump, 3.5 gigs total). On Arch and EndeavourOS, the last intervention was just recently, that's the one OP talks about, and they do happen more often and are more complicated than I'd like.
I used Tumbleweed for eight or so years before switching to Endeavour and it only really bit me hard once. Update, reboot, and sudo no longer worked! If I had spent a bit more time going through the mailing list, I could have made a simple configuration change before rebooting and saved a lot of stress! It affected nearly everybody who installed that particular image.
I'd say one issue in 8 years is a stellar track record!
But I agree they should have warned users a better way.
Anyway, I like how btrfs is treated within Tumbleweed - snapper is fully configured and enabled by default, and you can load a snapshot and rollback into it from the boot menu - all that would take you less than a minute, and any faulty update will be gone for good. With ext4, though, you might need Timeshift. But then, all that can be done within Arch with just a few more tweaks!
I’d say one issue in 8 years is a stellar track record!
Yeah, it's a pretty good track record. It was definitely a failure of communication in that instance, but iirc, they ended up rolling the change back a couple of days later.
Well… not really. My current installation of Tumbleweed is three and a half years old, and back in 2022 the only reason I re-installed it was changing the NVMe drive. I’ve never read factory mailing list and don’t ever recall having made manual interventions. I’ve just booted it, updated (zypper ref; zypper dup), rebooted and continued working.
I'm running Arch for a very long time. I agree this is not a distro for general audience. I disagree, however, that it is not stable. When I'm doing work I don't update my system. I enjoy my stable configuration and when I have time, I do update, I curiously watch which amazing foss software had an update. And I try them. I check my new firefox. I check gimp's new features. etc.. or if I have to do something I easily fix it, like in no time because I know my OS. Then I enjoy my stable system again.
Do you want to know what's unstable? When I had my new AMD GPU that I built my own kernel for, because the driver wasn't in mainline. And it randomly crashed the system. That's unstable.
Or when I installed my 3rd DE in ubuntu and apt couldn't deal with it, it somehow removed X.org. And I couldn't fix it. That's also something I don't want. Arch updates are much better than this.
Guess we simply apply different meaning to the word "stable". (you do you, though, and if it's alright with your workflow, yay!)
To me, stable means reliably working without any special maintenance. Arch requires you to update once in a while (otherwise your next update might get borked), and when you update, you may have to resolve conflicts and do manual interventions.
Right now, I run OpenSUSE Slowroll (beta, not released yet) on one of my machines and EndeavourOS on the other. The former recently had to update 1460 elements, and one intervention was required - package manager asked me if I want to hold one package for a while to avoid potential dependency issues. Later, it was fixed, and otherwise it went without a hitch. This is the worst behavior I've seen on this distribution, and so to me it renders "acceptably unstable" for general use (although I wouldn't give that to my grandma).
The VLC thing can be solved relatively easily by installing opi with zypper, and then running opi codecs, which will add all the necessary repos and install everything. After that VLC (and h.264 etc) will work like a charm.
Although, as another commenter pointed out, this will use Packman repo which is not official and apps there are not going through the same testing as in official repos.
So Flatpak is generally a better option. Still, if you want VLC as a native package, opi is indeed an easy and reliable way of providing it.
+1 for Garuda. It's nice that they have their own way of updating (garuda-update), which also handles situations like this one. It was very satisfying to not have to do anything when the linux-firmware change happened a couple of weeks back.
i used arco linux and they just linked the word update to the arch command to update and that made it very easy to update i don't remember the correct name for this. i do not know if garuda does the same or if they have there own program to do this.
Garuda works differently. You use garuda-update instead of pacman, and it takes care of just about everything for you. So, for example, if you have something like needing to uninstall a package because it was split (like linux firmware), garuda-update just takes care of that for you (after they update the scripts, which takes at most a week usually)
I'd recommend opensuse tumbleweed. It's still a rolling distribution, it still has more bleeding edge software, but its package manager, zypper, does atomic updates, so if something doesn't install right it rolls it back.
That's the real thing for me: how painless is it to live with long term? After I've installed a couple of weird things, and configured some stuff custom - is this a distro that keeps rolling into the future, or is it one that makes me wish I had the time to re-install from scratch every 6 months?
I also noticed vlc has broken (installed last week apparently)
Using the pacman syntax:
pacman -Q -i -d vlc
showed a conflict with the vlc-plugin (which appeared to be uninstalled already) and no vlc-plugin-#### installed.
The dependencies were fully explained in the list, including the vlc-plugins-all dependency. I'm lazy so that's the dependency I installed on my EndeavourOS.
After having a similar feeling as yours I went for NixOS.
My thoughts then : if it breaks I can rollback, and the unstable channel is quite comparable to what arch offers.
Now : I've moved to stable channel, because it's updated enough and allows me to only deal with breaking changes twice a year. Moving to NixOS was time consuming (but fun) because it required to rewrite all my dotfiles and learn something new.
What issues did you have? One of the many awesome things about NixOS is that you can write overrides for any particular package if you need an older version, or even to change some options.
I've been an Arch user for more than a decade and I'll usually be first in line to defend it from dodgy claims about unreliability.
But that forum response is bizarre. Literally the last two RSS items right now are about how splitting packages will require intervention for some users (plasma and Linux firmware). VLC is an officially supported package, and surely this change would impact almost every VLC user?
New opt-depends is a nice pacman feature, but it hardly implies that things have been removed from the base package.
Literally the last two RSS items right now are about how splitting packages will require intervention for some users (plasma and Linux firmware).
Maybe a nitpick, but the linux-firmware situation is different, it's not about needing to install extra packages (they turned the existing package into a meta package or whatever it's called), but about that coinciding with some changes that can break the upgrade process and require you to force uninstall a package before proceeding.
But yeah, good point about plasma, the only differences I can even think of are that plasma is probably more popular, and definitely more important to have working.
Manjaro has been pretty quiet for a long time. There's gotta be a point where we forgive and forget. I like Manjaro and used it as my entry point to Arch. It sets a lot more up for you out of the box and has manjaro-specific package bundles that just work on install.
According to Manjarno, its been just under three years since their last mistake, and that was just forgetting to renew the SSL cert for their archived forums. Probably about time we let it back into the Arch family.
I got burned by something like this on Manjaro when a rolling update completely borked my graphics card. The devs reacted in a similar way and it made me realise that my priority is stability over bleeding edge and tinkering.
On that day I moved to Fedora. Stable as hell, no fuss. My main OS should just work and not kill itself.
I still love it but jumped over to Bazzite Gnome recently, which is like Fedora with a few bells on top, coupled with having a read-only root-filesystem (stability, man!). It also comes with distrobox, which will let you run arch natively in a container if you need the AUR.
I had a similar moment of clarity after troubles with Manjaro and a couple other Arch based distros.
I really like the idea of a rolling release, but definitely nedd stability first.
I swung back the other way, and jumped on Ubuntu LTS. And gradually over time I ended up having to get updates from external repos etc, and ended up in the same position where updates broke things or didn't work.
Currently running Ubuntu, and I just do an upgrade to the latest release each 6 months - after waiting a month after release date for everything to settle down. The upgrades to new releases have gone smoothly, I get updates to newer versions of software, and it's been very rare anything breaks. Being a popular distro also means a big community to help with any issues as well.
yeah i had that happen to me too, didn't look in the update screen because updates before went with a breeze but i took another look after VLC wouldn't play anything, it was something with the VLC plugins and i needed to reinstall those, just had to do sudo pacamn -S vlc-plugins-all to get VLC to play video files back, but man, that should have been in the news imo.
So to be clear, you are willing to upend your entire system and potentially your workflow because a single package update was mishandled and because somebody was a little too direct on a forum?
Have you considered Mac OS? Yes, I'm being snarky, but the Linux world isn't fully user friendly. If you're unwilling to roll with the punches, it may not actually be for you.
EDIT: I guess tough love from somebody who ran slackware from a stack of physical representations of save buttons is unwelcome. Noted.
I’m being snarky, but the Linux world isn’t fully user friendly. If you’re unwilling to roll with the punches, it may not actually be for you.
I guess you're an Arch user, but this is exactly the wrong thinking. Yes, stuff sometimes break for pretty much every distro, but that doesn't mean we should dismiss people who want stuff to "just work" (which OP went above and beyond). We should absolutely strive to not break stuff, and if it does be humble and polite. Unless you literally want Linux to never become mainstream...
And btw I've been using Fedora for ages now, don't have to follow anything, and when stuff breaks they are generally apologetic about it and try to fix stuff.
Yes, I'm an arch user. But that's not the point. Even using something like mint, you still have to pay attention. Someone who's not willing to do that needs a curated operating system. Simple as that.
I also like to watch locally hosted videos from time to time. I also had the problem with VLC. 10 minutes later I had my answer, the problem was fixed, and I went on with my day. I didn't need to whine about the attitude of someone providing free tech support to someone else, and I didn't whine about a simple package adjustment.
I'll say it again. Linux isn't for everybody. Not yet. It still takes a little bit of grit.
I don't think the answer OP got falls under "tech support" (there would have had to be support for that). Additionally I don't think anyone should be subjected to whims of authority figures, regardless of project. Being nice is free
Then you and OP might consider spinning up your own distribution from scratch, because one of the basic facts of life in this world is this: As long as you're taking advantage of the fruits of somebody else's labor, you're also subject to their "whims".
i don't really care about being rude. but just saying Linux isn't for everybody seems stupid to me because this has nothing to do with Linux itself. its about the people you depend on to get your information and no Linux user benefits from making Linux smaller because of attitude on a forum i never got this. i liked arco linux because you had a video for every problem you don't need a forum moderator to tell you anything if you can see the problem and the solution. seems the best way for everybody to learn and that should be the whole point the rest is just people sniffing there own farts. youtube.com/@ErikDubois
ArcoLinux is like going to the University.
We take you on a journey in the Linux world.
After a few years you will have become pro Linux user with ease and comfort.
Struggling with a problem, look on the websites, look on Youtube...
You've got it right. I appreciate the directiness of the forum moderator because it was a clear signal to me that the Arch community doesn't value my experience at the level I would like.
Supporting iMacs for 8 years taught me Apple doesn't value my experience either. I'm happy to upend my system and workflow if it means I'm a step closer to living in the world I want to exist. Most of my life is chosen for me so I want the decisions I have control over to be meaningful to me.
I'm truly sorry that's the takeaway you got from all this. My (attempted) point was along the lines of "Linux is still the wild west." If you're looking for appreciation from random people on the internet, you might be in the wrong place.
Most of my life is chosen for me so I want the decisions I have control over to be meaningful to me.
I get it, probably more than most (my handle isn't random). But from that very perspective, IMO you have to be able to withstand a few assholes and pick your battles. An asshole in a forum that isn't even replying to me specifically doesn't exceed that threshold.
I’ve only once had a broken firmware update in years and it was an easy fix.
I’m not sure how people can recommend other distributions when they all have issues of one sort or another and you just have to do the bare minimum sometimes to fix them.
Judging from how hasty you are to dismiss a distribution based on a singular event, I would say it will be hard to find other distributions that can be what you wish them to be.
Not gate keeping here, but even in Windows/Mac there are issues which require some research to fix, sometimes even harder than linux ones.
If that happened to me I'd not want to deal with that again either.
What has made arch work for me is BTRFS filesystem with the grub module grub-btrfs. It gives you BTRFS snapshots you can load into at grub and with snapper and auto snap it will automatically create a restore point before updating.
It's worked flawlessly and thanks to BTRFS black magic the snapshots don't take up much storage space. I also recommend BTRFS assistant in the aur if you don't mind using a gui.
If you want an easy arch setup + friendly community forums + easy BTRFS setup I can't recommended EndevourOS enough.
This is not a support forum, this is not tech support, this is lemmy and other then giving a great example of what the OP is getting at what does your comment address?
It is most certainly not. (He says, as he comes fuming out of yet another meeting about a ticket that could have been solved at Tier 2 if support would learn how to read a log)
Oh pebkac is alive and well, no doubt about it. But expecting any level of expertise from an non commercial end user while simultaneously shooting down their questions is not going to help.
I absolutely agree, but here's the problem in this context: * OP isn't non-commercial. By their own words, they'd been doing desktop support for MacOS - plastic-wrapped and glittery, but still a *nix. Five years in, one's search-fu and tolerance for reading docs should be well developed. * Their question was answered by the page they found. OP's argument is they didn't like the tone used to reply to THAT post's OP and concluded from that tone that their expertise wouldn't be valued "in the way they would like". There's room to develop some grit here. * Arch isn't intended for inexperienced users, and that is made clear in the docs. "It is targeted at the proficient GNU/Linux user, or anyone with a do-it-yourself attitude who is willing to read the documentation, and solve their own problems." (wiki.archlinux.org/title/Arch_…) Getting this upset over a single package readjustment, no matter how badly it was communicated, tells me OP doesn't have a ton of experience with bare metal linux. There's just no way to sugarcoat that.
Arch gatekeeps on occasion, yes, but this isn't that. This is the simple rules of that particular distro. OP is free to find something that better fits their needs; and it appears they have.
I see no problems with someone showing frustration, and in this case I don't think arch should be proud of this example.
This is very much that, and why arch has the reputation it does. It will always be a fringe distro with the way the people (you included) shame and gatekeep.
Sure, but when I am looking for an answer toxic positivity and RTFM are often the same thing. The number of times people jump up to defend the manual and glaze the program without even checking if the info is in the manual (or if the manual even makes sense at all) is way too high.
I used to have to work on new stuff all the time and would have to read whitepapers or engineering change docs on the daily, and no the tangled mess most Linux documentation is in does not count as a functioning source of information.
The part that still grinds my gears is why bother to type out nothing of value like RTFM at all? Forums are filled with terrible posts belittleing the question instead of just answering the question. Its not helping anyone and at least to me makes little sense.
IMHO the actual problem here is the Arch moderator being an ass.
This happens in all operating systems from time to time. An update kills an app. Usually, the app is wildly out of date and hanging on to the last vestiges of a deprecated call that finally gets removed. I recently experienced this with V4L (for OBS virtual camera) and a kernel update in NixOS. Had one hell of a time tracking it down. It was one of the twice-yearly OS upgrades. Luckily, I had only updated one of my devices, and it still worked on the old one. After tearing apart the changes, I was finally able to specify V4L and a Linux kernel version. Immediately, the problem popped right out. The new kernel now needs a specific value passed for the expected video stream, where it used to use a default if it wasn't specified.
Apple breaks apps all the time. Windows does, but less so. The difference is usually before an update happens, Windows and Apple have had TONs of people testing on their own teams and their insiders people.
In the end, I just needed to roll back the kernel one revision until the V4L guys make the change, or I needed to recompile V4L myself with the option defaulted to something useful.
I don't think you can safely get away from this kind of issue. (app incompatibility on upgrade, not mods being an ass)
Debian or Mint seem to be pretty welcoming and easy going to get rid of the asshole issues, but chances are, you're going to break something eventually, and it's going to be super hard to figure out why and how to get around it.
Off-topic: A meta-analysis if you will, but I'm just astonished by the engagement this post has received. I wonder what this tells us about the Linux community on Lemmy.
On-topic: OP, honestly, others have chimed in and left very good answers already. So perhaps you won't find anything within my comment that hasn't been said. But, as I'm a latecomer to this thread, I might have an advantage that some didn't (try to capitalize on). To be blunt, the original post didn't reveal much about what you liked and didn't like about Arch. As such, my initial impression would have been to suggest Gentoo. But, you've since provided the engaging community crucial insights that help us in grasping the full picture. Below you may find my own notes on your distro preferences based on what you said: - care-free updates - repo packages receive updates shortly after upstream - rewards effort put into initial setup
Furthermore, I'll take the liberty to assume that (native) package availability is expected to be vast. And that you wish for the process of updating to be snappy.
Based on the above, I recommend NixOS.
If jumping ship to NixOS seems too daunting, then consider installing Nix^[To be clear, I meant the package manager. Determinate System's installer is probably your best option.] on Arch. Consider to slowly but surely expand its usage within your system. And, then, when you're comfortable, embrace NixOS as a worthy successor to your Arch installation.
Eric Gales releases a new video "Somebody", featuring Buddy Guy and Roosevelt Collier, taken from his upcoming album "A Tribute To LJK". A Tribute To LJK wil...
Explosive tapes recorded by author Michael Wolff show Epstein claiming Trump liked to “f---” his friends’ wives and first slept with Melania on the “Lolita Express.”
Occupied Palestine (Quds News Network)- The health of Dr. Hussam Abu Safiya, Director of Kamal Adwan Hospital in northern Gaza, has significantly deteriorated after more than 190 days in Israeli deten
What's the solution to the immigration crisis? Digital identity, of course! The solution searched for a problem, and since it couldn't find one, one was created for it, or at least, to be shared among various "solutions." This refers to Australia, but can (and eventually) will apply to the western world.
@DrFell Last time I went to Australia their regulations on immigration for just a simple work passport was quite heavy. Plus it's not like it's connected to another continent by land like the USA or Europe.
HODEIDA, July 14 (YPA) - About 60 Yemeni fishermen were released on Monday after being held by the Eritrean authorities for several days.According to fishermen's accounts, their boats and personal equipment were completely confiscated.The fishermen a
BREAKING: The Catholic Church enrages MAGA world as the Archdiocese of Miami unequivocally condemns "Alligator Alcatraz" as "unbecoming of public officials" and "corrosive of the common good." The Church has quickly become Donald Trump's greatest enemy...
we need to have a violent revolution in the usa if there's any change to come. the communists think they'll be able to do that but that's just so laughably out of touch to think that.
The Commission of Prisoners' Affairs and the Palestinian Prisoners' Club stated that the Israeli court in Beersheba, during a session held Monday morning, issued a decision ordering an autopsy on the body of martyred prisoner Louay Faisal Nasrallah f…
- The Haunch of Venison - The White Hart - The Rose and Crown - The Roebuck - The Black Pug - The Old Coffee House Tavern - Railway Inn - The Boiler Room - The Reardon - The Stage Door - Coachmakers Arms - Garrick - The Old Thatched Tavern - The Moat House Inn - The Oak - The Nelson - The Cape of Good Hope - The Fat Pug - The Fizzy Moon Brewhouse - The Saxon Mill - The Wild Boar
At Fillmore East is a double live album by The Allman Brothers Band. The band's breakthrough success, At Fillmore East was released in July 1971. It ranks Nu...
We tried many times before to speed on the social revolution in Spain; attempted to stir up the feelings of the people and to raise the banner of libertarian communism. -- Frederica Montseny
green is definitely my favorite color and a huge part of it is it being assigned as my color when I was a kid by my parents (another sister was blue, another red) but its also just genuinely a really beautiful and relaxing color.
so what is the point where you go from being able to jump into a body of water w/o hurting yourself and where you break bones just by hitting the water? I’ve been told jumping from great heights into the water is like hitting concrete.
A dead man switch is easier to pull off today than ever before. Why has no one ever use one? Are there any examples?
The thing that brings this to mind is Alan Dershowitz being absolutely 100% confident he knows names and details of clients from the Epstein list. But he won't say because he has an order from a Judge. He's 86. If this man doesn't dump every name upon his death bed I'm going to be really pissed.
sorta what I was thinking. In fact, I’d go one further. Being that he is 86, what TF does he have to lose by spilling it now? Some judge ordered him to stay quiet. Big deal. Because we know how well those orders work on other things. He ought to just come clean.
Lenin: Resolution of the Central Committee of the R.S.D.L.P. (Bolsheviks) Adopted in the Morning of April 22 (May 5), 1917 marxists.org/archive/lenin/wor…
Word on the street is that the Land Trust which was concerned about The Dollar General situation, heard about our efforts to repopulate the fields with Bobwhite Quail, as well as our wildlife friendly preservation of a major Whitetail Deer trail and our conservation minded tree planting of American Chestnut and American Elm and that moved the vote to acquire the property.
Sometimes doing the right thing pays off in the end.
The Dollar General that was in the works for going up next to my orchard-homestead is no longer in play.
Instead the local Land Trust is buying the fields beside and out behind my orchard-homestead and those fields are going to remain undeveloped as a nature preserve.
Furthermore on the other side of my orchard-homestead, the neighbor who sold the above property to the Land Trust, has secured a tax easement from the state for a good portion of his remaining property to remain undeveloped.
Now my neighbor and I are completely surrounded by nature preserves.
I cant see my neighbor, but I can sometimes hear a loud noise from over that way. There are thick woods between us in a low area that is often water logged.
This PR is an ongoing effort to add a CUDA backend to MLX, very little things work now but you can run the tutorial example already.
To build and test:
$ cmake . -Bbuild -DMLX_BUILD_CUDA=ON -DMLX_B...
Former Nigerian President Muhammadu Buhari has died at the age of 82 following a prolonged illness. He passed away Sunday afternoon at a clinic in London, according to official statements from his family and the presidency.
To comply with UK LAW, Shitposter World is rolling out age verification for our users in the UK. If you are an SPW user and reside in the UK, reply to this thread answering the question, what is this sound:
@LittleTom lol the chinks ended a Souls game with the power of friendship. Amazing.
Boy I sure hope there's a DLC where Arissa stares lifelessly at more NPCs with empty glassy eyes and repeats the last three words they said as a question.
EAST RUTHERFORD, NJ — In what political experts said was a bold move to reach across ideological boundaries, President Donald Trump honored the gay community by attending a soccer match.
With the merciful you will show yourself merciful; with an upright man you will show yourself upright; With the pure you will show yourself pure; and with the perverse you will show yourself perverse.
For you will save the afflicted people; but will bring down high looks.
For you will light my candle: the LORD my God will enlighten my darkness. 🕯️
For by you I have run through a troop; and by my God have I leaped over a wall. 💪
coloradosun.com/2025/07/14/col… CO filing lawsuit against the USG about withholding $$ for school related services. Part of over 20 states in lawsuit.
coloradosun.com/2025/07/14/arc… and cbsnews.com/colorado/news/colo… Guy in Archuleta County set a fire in a storage room with Dominion election machines. The fire was a month ago, William Bryant was arrested about two weeks later - has a day in court in a week.
Colorado election officials on Monday are praising the work of law enforcement in making an arrest in connection with a firebombing attack that targeted election equipment last month.
Amazon has for Prime Members: 29-Oz Garden of Life Coconut Oil for Hair, Skin, Cooking for $11.98 - 30% when you 'clip' the coupon on the product page - 5% when you check out via Subscribe &
Just a reminder to the people who have been on Mastodon or the Fediverse awhile: remember to follow some new people every once in a while, especially someone with few followers who would just like to connect and be heard by someone. It’s easy to get caught in our routines, but there are new, kind, interesting people joining everyday.
脾气不好会咬人
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