friendica.eskimo.com
The fediverse is small, and thats both a blessing and a curse - one of its several blessings is that in a smaller space we all individually have a bigger impact on what the culture of this space is like.
On this comm (and on lemmy broadly) there's a lot of discussion about how to grow the fediverse, what to improve, but an easy thing you can do for the fediverse is right in front of us-
A platform lives or dies by what's available on said platform and often we have this conversation in the context of "content" or posts - and we may never have as much content as reddit does. But content and posts aren't the only thing this kind of platform offers- it also offers people. It offers community, and human interaction.
Culture and community is lemmy and the fediverse's biggest differentiator, and we all have a role to play in shaping the culture of this space.
***The biggest thing you can do to help the fediverse *is make it a place worth being.****
Almost as if the statement is referring to the paradox of tolerance.
By allowing people like Nazis, Christofascists, Tankies, etc. a platform, it only invites more sharing that view to spread their bullshit around. This makes those that don’t share those extremist views uncomfortable they then leave those places. You see it on platforms like Truth Social, X, and 4Chan.
If this is to be a kind place, we must encourage kindness and rid ourselves of unkindness. You can’t tolerate intolerance, lest it spread and take over.
To be clear, I mean people who praise Hitler, get swastika tattoos, blame everything on a Jewish Conspiracy, etc.
You know, Nazis.
This is a whole different train of thought (mine is, I won't speak for yours) and I don't wanna derail my original thought but that's a thing I've been thinking about a lot lately.
I agree with you, and subscribe to the idea of tolerance as a social contract that, once broken, is no longer owed to the one who broke the contract.
At the same time, I've also learned that very explicitly, feeling persecuted is a requisite ingredient in radicalizing people into hate groups. And that at an individual scale, it's generally undeserved compassion that helps deradicalize them. We know this from the accounts of people who managed to leave hate groups- a little while ago there was really good (and long) interview with someone who used to be leader of a white nationalist group where he talked a fair bit about that idea, since he now works with a nonprofit that helps families and friends support and deradicalize loved ones, but it's far from the only account
At present I'm really not sure how I personally reconcile those two things I belive to be true. The Nazi bar analogy is real.
I know wading into this more specific conversion runs the risk of immediately derailing what I was trying to start a discussion about, but I figured I'd share my thoughts. If anyone reads this and has thoughts to share (though I'd prefer not to get 50 comments just saying I suck for having complicated views on what we do about the predicament the US and world is in with the rise of fascist ideology. I'm interested in what's effective in terms of fixing the problem just like you are) I'd be interested in hearing them. I'm still looking for a way to synthesize my beliefs into a coherent whole.
Edit: thought I'd add the interview for anyone curious. I don't see everything exactly the way he does but I think understanding the problem and exactly how it works is necessary of we're going to address it, and I think his account is a really useful glimpse into certain aspects of how that world works
Arno Michaelis is a former white nationalist skinhead, lead singer of the neo-Nazi metal band Centurion, and member of Hammerskin Nation, one of the most vio...YouTube
i think if someone's intolerant, pointing out that they're wrong is something appropriate, but picking a fight over it is not worth it. it makes you like that person in that meme:
edit: in bad cases, report it and move on with your life.
One thing that's turning me off, is the, uh... political requirements of much of the space.
By that I mean stuff like "Elon Musk should commit suicide" or "X group of people are all mentally retarded" comments in top posts, or even popular posts themselves.
It feels toxic like X. Or what Voat (an older Reddit clone, albeit not a federated one) turned into, albeit at the opposite side of the political spectrum.
I can definitely understand that. I think in a lot of ways that problem is driven by how much of a political echo chamber lemmy is. Any time there's a narower range of beliefs I feel like you can see those beliefs getting more extreme, or expressed in more extreme and toxic ways.
I honestly don't really know how to improve it given the state of the world. It feels like the range of political beliefs keeps getting compressed into two groups and it makes it harder and harder to tolerate the beliefs of those further from yourself. And for valid reasons.
And the more justified the contempt for people of other political views gets the harder it gets to figure out how, culturally, we manage the justified anger that comes from how deeply broken everything is.
Elon musk is doing actual literal Nazi salutes and peoples anger about that is justified. And at the same time I'm not sure what way of acting on that anger (and acting on the problem) yields anything other than radializing people teetering on the edge of extremism.
I'm glad I don't really see actual Nazis on lemmy. Its nice that there's less debate about the legitimacy of people's humanity.
And at the same time anger is deeply toxic to healthy interaction and drives behaviors that I genuinely don't think make the problems prompting people's anger any better.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts candidly, a lot of this thread is a love-fest and that's wonderful and puts a smile on my face, but it's at least as important to talk about the unhealthy aspects of the fediverse's culture
It may not do much depending on the mods/admins, but it never hurts to report and downvote comments or posts like that.
Emphasis on reporting there, as I think sometimes that stuff lingers around because people have made a habit of only downvoting and blocking those doing that regularly. I realize in your examples it's more likely bias or bigotry respectively, but still.
Report first, then downvote and block. Doing only the latter only makes your experience a little better, the former may help the community.
I do report them, but some communities seem to encourage it and leave it up.
I guess I can block the community, but it's still affecting the "Lemmy culture" at large...
I love this.
I think it’s important to say this doesn’t mean pretending you like or agree with something you don’t like or agree with.
But when you do see something you like, agree with, or appreciate, drop a compliment. Compliments make places better!
Instructions unclear. Here is your personal info:
Name: Christopher "Chris" Alan Whitmore
Date of Birth: July 12, 1993
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Address: 4279 Elmridge Avenue, Boulder, CO 80301
Phone Number: (720) 555-3942
Email: cwhitmore93@gmail.com
Alternate Email: c.a.whitmore@outlook.com
Social Media:
Instagram: @chris.the.moose
IP Address: 73.164.202.147
ISP: Xfinity by Comcast
Router Name: WhitNet_5G
Router Password: MooseTracks2020!
Education:
Fairview High School, Boulder, CO (Graduated 2011)
University of Colorado Boulder – B.S. in Computer Science (Graduated 2015)
Employment:
2016–2019: IT Support Specialist at Techfinity Solutions
2019–Present: Systems Analyst at VantaByte Technologies, Boulder, CO
Known Devices:
MacBook Pro (M1, 2020) – Chris’s-MBP.local
iPhone 13 – Chrissy’s iPhone
iPad Air – MoosePad
Gaming Handles:
Steam: WhitMoose93
Discord: MooseMan#4491
Xbox Live: WhitByte93
Observations:
Favorite coffee order: Iced caramel macchiato, oat milk
Has a rescue husky named “Niko”
Drives a black 2018 Subaru Outback with a "Hack the Planet" bumper sticker
Frequently shops at: Micro Center, REI, Whole Foods
Sure! Here's an expanded version of the fictional profile for Chris Whitmore, now including made-up family member names, relationships, and contact info — all entirely fictional and consistent with the character:
Family Members:
I have successfully sent 132 death threats in total to you and your family members.
::: spoiler disclaimer
please mods this whole thing is a joke
:::
I thought it was more 'up and down' 😀
Can people see what groups you subscribe to on Lemmy?
Can people see what groups you subscribe to on Lemmy?
Other users can see which ones you comment on.
I haven't run an instance, but I imagine admins of our home instances can see what groups we are subscribed to.
I have a couple of suggestions to add:
I was considering leaving the other site before the API fiasco because it felt like so many users approach engagement as rhetorical combat, that is, the point of discussion is to defeat the other person. Instead, think one of Covey's habits of highly-effective people: "Win-win, or no deal." Approach discussion on the Fediverse as a collaborative act, in which you're exchanging ideas with another person. Even if you disagree, you can both win by respectfully hearing out the other person. And if the other person won't collaborate? No deal! Just disengage.
Just like in intimate relationship, use "I" statements instead of "you" statements. Telling people who they are and what they believe is not only disrespectful, but probably wrong, often exaggerated or distorted for rhetorical combat purposes. People get angry when their identity gets poked at. One exception, of course, is when giving advice, like, stick to what you know, and share your thoughts and your reactions to a topic.
Sorry but right wingers aren't welcome here.
If (Republicans/Tankies/Fascists) want any voice here they can go get fucked.
If they acted in good faith and were capable of processing reality they wouldn't identify as such.
We need to accept they have had decades to self reflect and learn how reality works, and instead they choose to erase minorities because they make right wingers uncomfortable.
No, I'm done being nice.
serious question but how do/could you formalize your rejection of right-wingers? what is it exactly that you take issue with?
i'm asking because i talk to a lot of people (also some who identify as "right-wingers") and i'd like to know what exactly are the issues that bother people, so i can forward it to them. it would help me bring up better arguments if i know what other people are thinking.
so, i've collected the following list of things to take issue with so far:
tell me if i forgot something.
oh yes i forgot about canada and greenland somehow, sorry
actually i meant in general, like apart from the current situation with trump.
Right wing ideologies hinge on distracting people from their problems instead of solving them.
This arracts exclusively con men and dumb marks.
And the distractions they choose always end up being the erasure of minorities for some fucking reason.
proof?
i'm asking because i suspect that might be a fallacy; i remember reading somewhere that 10k years ago the first wars happened, before then war practically didn't exist because war requires a minimum amount of organization and that just wasn't there before.
There was organized violence deployed by groups of humans against other groups of humans long, long before anything we would recognize as warfare. Particularly brutal violence too, because the objective was not to conquer other people (something which only makes sense once agriculture is the dominant mode of sustinence), but to either drive off or exterminate a rival group so you can use their territory for yourself.
And we don't even need to talk about people here: we have records of chimpanzees fighting small scale wars of harassment and extermination against neighboring groups.
Pre-modern, pre-civilization, pre-aggriculture, pre-you-name-it human life was far more violent than what we deal with today.
We aren't chimpanzees. As persistence hunters, our kinds of territorial disputes would have been very different and early humans were likely very nomadic rather than settling into territories that fight. In times of scarcity we'd just move on to different lands.
Which, notably, is why humans spread over the entire planet. We aren't really built to be fighters.
No one is saying we are chimps, but we share lots of mammalian behavior
For example, did you know chimpanzees engage on guerrilla wars, torture and , weirdly enough, prisoner exchanges?
But that's besides the point, I think they were just pointing out how standardized is that behavior in the animal kingdom, not excusing it
But it's not "standardized" behavior, that's just the behavior of a single animal.
We have more in common with other migratory herd animals because we move so much. Elephants, for example.
The main thing is the bigotry and making marginalized people feel unwelcome and unsafe. Having trans people and Nazis existing in the same space isn't really tenable, in practice, most marginalized people would rather be in a space where their existence and basic rights aren't up for debate and where they won't receive slurs and threats of violence. So the question is, who would you rather have in your community, oppressor or oppressed?
Of course, this person applies this standard blindly by including "tankies" as "right-wingers." She's just abusing a valid argument by using it to dismiss any perspective she doesn't like, left or right, bigoted or accepting, bad faith or good faith, as "right-wing."
That is a very specific interpretation of what I meant by this post.
To be perfectly honest, I really wasn't making the point you should approve of nazis. Just that maybe it's worth putting effort into being kind to one another...
For example, I constantly see leftists online biting eachother's heads off (including on lemmy) for having slightly different left-wing ideology. Its not like "approach people you disagree with with curiosity" means specifically actual neonazis, and approaching someone with curiosity doesn't mean telling people "your idea is correct and you're right for thinking it"
It means trying to understand it. You can dislike someone and still gain from better understanding their worldview. Even if you think it's harmful. Even if you think it's illogical. Even if you think they're wrong. Curiousity isn't tacit approval.
If you want to think about it cynically you can consider it creating allies and knowing your enemy.
All of that ignoring the fact that if you look around, this platform is almost exclusively left wing 😅
I understand we disagree on certain things, that's okay, these are just my thoughts on the subject, and it's a profoundly important one, so I can appreciate why people would have different strongly held beliefs on it. Hope you have a good one 😀
Anger and fear are blinding if you let them be, especially if they're intensely justified.
Unfortunately we live in times where they're very justified. I don't begrudge people for reacting in anger or fear, I'm doing my best not to do exactly the same 🙁
Take care my friend.
As so often, the answer is found in scripture:
One day Mal-2 asked the messenger spirit Saint Gulik to approach the Goddess and request Her presence for some desperate advice. Shortly afterwards the radio came on by itself, and an ethereal female Voice said YES?"O! Eris! Blessed Mother of Man! Queen of Chaos! Daughter of Discord! Concubine of Confusion! O! Exquisite Lady, I beseech You to lift a heavy burden from my heart!"
WHAT BOTHERS YOU, MAL? YOU DON'T SOUND WELL.
"I am filled with fear and tormented with terrible visions of pain. Everywhere people are hurting one another, the planet is rampant with injustices, whole societies plunder groups of their own people, mothers imprison sons, children perish while brothers war. O, woe."
WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH THAT, IF IT IS WHAT YOU WANT TO DO?
"But nobody wants it! Everybody hates it."
OH. WELL, THEN STOP.
At which moment She turned herself into an aspirin commercial and left The Polyfather stranded alone with his species.
Answer. I said answer. Not solution. Too much aspirin and your blood thins out and you need to move to Transylvania.
That took my brain a hot minute to process lol. Is that actually from something or did you just invent it on the spot? 😅
"I am filled with fear and tormented with terrible visions of pain. Everywhere people are hurting one another, the planet is rampant with injustices, whole societies plunder groups of their own people, mothers imprison sons, children perish while brothers war. O, woe.""But nobody wants it! Everybody hates it.
"OH. WELL, THEN STOP.
Unironically wisdom we should all learn from. I can't stop for other people but I can at least choose how I act, and whether I contribute to that pain suffering and discord.
Right wingers voted for the Republicans who are now attempting a fascist coup.
I'm done trying to make friends with people who want to erase me and my friends/family
Idk what to tell you
I can understand your anger, I'm in the same boat, but I really wasn't asking you to do that 🙁 I was asking you to be kind to the people here. That you share this space with.
I wish I had left this list of examples in the original post where I had them at first
- Compliment people's art and ask about their process
- Teach people about something you're knowledgeable on
- Give constructive criticism on peoples projects when it's welcome
- Thank people for posting things you're glad you got to see, tell them you enjoyed it
- Tell people you're glad they're here
- Tell people you hope they have a good day
I moved them to a comment because I have a bad habit of being really long winded and I wanted people to actually read the whole post, but I think moving them and leaving "try to approach people you disagree with with curiosity rather than hostility" prompted a lot of folks to interpret what I was saying as "tell the Nazis who want to debate your humanity that all their views are swell, actually"
What I meant is exactly what didn't happen in our interaction with eachother. I'm a queer leftist whose humanity is debated by the right. You don't completely agree with me and that's okay, but I'm not deserving of your hostility.
We may not see things exactly the same way but I care just as much about combating fascism as you do; everyone I love save for some of my family is a minority with a target on their back in the eyes of the current administration.
I wish I could have made it more clear what I meant. I've gotten lots of comments more or less insinuating that I'm encouraging we all complicit in the rise of fascism. And it's not a big percentage, but I'm still a human being who hears 12 people forcefully telling me that, and it doesn't feel great.
That's not what I'm advocating. I'm advocating that when you don't completely see eye to eye with someone, you ask them what they mean (and also lots of other things, like giving compliments and telling folks you appreciate their post, etc. etc. ect., but I feel like how to handle disagreement is the specific idea in question).
WE don't see exactly eye to eye. You and other commenters here don't see exactly eye to eye. And that's okay. Being willing to talk with them or me about what they think and why doesn't help the Nazis.
(Like I said I'm really long winded 🙃 sorry for the wall of text, I know it's not even the first one I've replied with to you specifically 😅)
It's specifically the "don't call people Russian trolls/bots"
There are a lot of Right wingers sympathetic to fascist countries right now, and it doesn't matter if it's a troll farm or a regular person pushing hateful ideology it's harmful and unacceptable either way.
Personally I don't see calling people Russian bots/trolls or accepting harmful behaviour as the only available options.
I don't think the former is at all productive or helps anything, and the latter is completely unacceptable. But those aren't our only options when we decide how we want to engage with people we disagree with
and again, fascists are not the only people with whom disagreements happen on lemmy. We're literally disagreeing right now, if you called me a Russian bot I think that would be silly and unproductive. That's literally my whole point. Not everyone you disagree with is arguing in bad faith 🤷♂️
If we keep letting Nazis into the bar it becomes a Nazi bar
This is a good principle to learn as to not accidentally validate people with invalid worldviews.
I'm very familiar with and agree with the Nazi bar metaphor, and said as much in one of my very first comments I made in the discussion under this post. At no point have I advocated letting Lemmy be a Nazi bar. And we don't exactly have many fascists here compared to other platforms, Lemmy is almost exclusively leftists.
Being kind to your fellow lemmites is not making this platform a Nazi safe haven, it just makes it a social space actually worth spending time in.
It makes them feel validated, they're not capable of self reflection
From my experience it hurts more than helps to engage with fascists/right wingers because you give them a platform.
well i'd argue that setting teslas on fire is property damage, while slashing social security is murder or at the very least neglect of duties that led to deaths of many people.
it is clear that property damage is the minor damage of the two, according to contemporary interpretation of law.
about the guillotining:
same story. talkings about guillotining people is a reasonable threat when the alternative is to let the billionaires upend your roots and your lifes through horrible policy decisions. it's an act of self-defence at some point, i'd say.
though i agree with you at least partially that the US is different than say europe.
in the US, the mindset of "hard work" is more far-spread, as it the mindset that people who don't work, don't deserve to eat. that's just the US being the US i guess.
Well do you?
Also I meant in general. Those types of posts and comments are highly upvoted in here.
I knew that would happen, but you're not wrong 😅
As I've alluded to, there's a lot of justifiable anger about the state of the world, and you can see that hurt reflected in people's immediate response. The feelings driving that "conclusion jumping" valid and understandable, even if I don't think it's productive
There is no easy way to cope with fascism on your doorstep, or taking over your home and threatening to throw you out of it 🙁
Originally I listed all the extra examples/suggestions I put in my comment in the actual post itself, but I have a bad habit of making things way too long so I moved all the smaller more specific things to the comment. I think maybe it would have been more clear I'm not saying you should approve of Nazis had they still been in the post.
Unless you're a republican or other type of nazi. Then you can absolutely go all the way to hell.
Tolerance got us here.
Generalizing is a logical fallacy. Not all Republicans are Nazis.
Some are rotten. Some are good people that just got duped.
It's not black and white.
Its easy to forget they live in a fundamentally different reality shaped by a buble of media. We all do, but conservative media kinda feels like an alternative universe.
When confronted with the world we live in they reject it as unrealistic because it differs too much from the facts they've accepted about the world.
My grandpa is a trump voter and I do my best to still talk to him. At an individual scale he's a kind, sincere man who has always been welcoming of my queerness and tries to understand me. It's very painful trying to discuss things with him even though it stays a kind interaction when I lead with kindness. It requires a lot of cognitive dissonance, but he lives in a fundamentally different reality than I do and I honestly don't know what I can do about it 🙁
That's the dangerous thing about fascism. Decent people buy into it. Become complicit or enable it. It wouldn't be a real threat if they didn't. But it engineers a reality for people to believe in, and lo and behold, they do. And cruelty ensues 🙁
It’s not about tolerance imo, it’s about discussion. You’d be surprised to learn their reasoning if you actually listened to it. You don’t have to agree with it.
Both sides have this problem right now. Both only converse with their own. Why are republicans not changing? Well if their friends, family and everyone they talk to is a republican, they’ll never be exposed to different opinions.
Don’t forget that both sides can have valid policies depending on how you view the world. I’m not taking about trump and whatever you people are doing out there in the US, but in general, conservatism is the idea that people will manage their money, rather than the government.
Look at Quebec for example. A very socialist government. 2 years ago they invested a ton of money into one electric bus company. Well that company failed really bad and while they aren’t completely bankrupt, they aren’t far. It’s easy then to then see why conservatives would want to vote conservative. If their money had stayed in their pocket instead of going to the government, this wouldn’t have happened.
Same thing with health. The public health system is currently clogged up so a lot of people end up having to pay to go to the private sector to actually get cured in time. So conservatives believe this whole system is a huge waste of taxpayer money. Most conservatives I know aren’t agaisnt the government helping with that, but they’d rather the government just pay the invoice after you went to a private clinic, similar to insurance in the states, rather than try to control a system that clearly isn’t working.
Nazis can always join their own defederated server and have their little circle jerk, nothing is stopping them from going and joining exploding heads; they don't have a right to be part of federated fediverse and have their bullshit heard.
For that matter, nothing's stopping the people who disagree with me from creating their own nazi-friendly Lemmy instance. This is not the Nazi bar, and it's not going to be, so go ahead and open it yourselves. No need to let me know how it turns out, I'm pretty sure I've got a good guess.
The world is not America, buddy. Also don't make leftists & liberals seem like they're somehow above this crap either.
You both want to crawl up in peoples ass & tell them what to do
Great post.
To add to this, not resorting to calling others tankies or Russian bots when you have differing opinions, especially around politics.
On Reddit, I once bragged about having universal healthcare and got called a Nazi and a communist at the same time.
This is what happens when Xbox kids that use the n-word grow up. They learn new "bad" words and throw them around out of context and contradictingly. They don't actually know what those things are, though, so it never makes sense.
I've been called a tankie here. I didn't know what it was and looked it up, just to discover it was the literal opposite of the things I was saying. I was very confused and just put it down to frustrated self-projection. At some point they had been called that, it upset them, so now they use it to upset people too but they still don't actually know what it is they're saying.
If I see someone defaulting to Russian bot or tankie, I've found another Xbox kid.
I could be wrong but to me it feels odd to think lemmy is big enough to be worth organizing psyops for.
Not to say it couldn't be an issue in the future, but it feels much more likely that people expressing pro Russia sentiment are just people who bought into that particular brand of propaganda.
Which like, to some extent all of our individual world views are shaped by the environment of propaganda we're exposed to. We're all products of our social conditioning, and ultimately that's exactly what propaganda is. Media designed to socially condition people to a certain set of beliefs. All we as individuals can do is be aware of it and be willing to look at our own beliefs critically.
But at the end of the day I think the folks praising Russia on lemmy are just people. People I personally think are misguided, but I don't think theyre generally acting in bad faith any more than the general population here.
Honestly if anyone is doing that I really feel like it would be the US, not Russia.
Russia's goal is to sew discord and unballance the populace that drives politics, and for that to work you need a MASSIVE scale that we just don't really have. They don't really have much to gain from the IP addresses of a handful of leftists
But Lemmy is exactly the kind of hotspot for people DEEPLY angry about the government of the US to organize that if we're big enough to be on their radar, the US government would have a vested interest in keeping an eye on potential dissidents. Unlike Russia IP addresses and personally identifiable information would be useful to them, in identifying threat actors, tracking their activity and volatility online, and building cases that would allow them to prosecute should said dissidents escalate
That's how it looks from where I'm standing anyway 🤷♂️
Most people know this in some capacity, but it's not talked about enough: the shape of the platform massively shapes its culture. Every mechanism, intentional feature or not, is a factor in resulting user behavior and should be accounted for.
Reddit Karma was (shitty) reputation from the start, but Slashdot user IDs became one despite being mere sequential identifiers; negative user feedback such as downvotes can be harmful to communities (yet, users without an outlet may lash out in other ways e.g. reports); even how the platform communicates with users influences them; and so on.
I'm not saying you shouldn't be nice and incentivize others to do the same, but unless the system naturally leads to the desired behavior, you'll have a bad time in the long term because building culture by interactions doesn't scale. By the time you realize there's a shift, it's too late; interactions will compound and affect how the average user acts faster than you can try to course-correct.
I wish lemmy was more experimental, because by building a clone of reddit, we've copied too many of its faults. We've already got gatherings to complain about mods, and the one time devs considered changing a core component, discussion was killed by an onslaught of users. Problems with the current setup that were brought up then will likely never see that amount of people thinking about how to solve them.
Contrast with Mastodon, which gets crap for not being a faithful copy of twitter, but their reasoning for not including quote-reblogs is understandable. They're now putting a lot of thought into how to add them safely. Not ignoring functionality users want, but also not ignoring how it will affect culture, that's compromise.
I'd like it if we could talk more about how our platforms work and, particularly, how they affect us, because that's a big way we can build better platforms, right up there with being nice.
Discover how Reddit's downvote feature affects user engagement and community dynamics. Learn about the debates and implications of negative feedback on the platformIjaz Malik (Our Mental Health)
I 1000% agree, the design of the space we inhabit shapes our behaviour.
I don't think collectively we can stop at intentionally being kind, but forming a coherent design vision to effectively shape human behaviour and social outcomes as a community project is HARD and legitimately takes an actual vision and understanding of incredibly advanced design cobcepts very few have the experience to have any realy expertise in. Still important, but I think this is an easy way everyone can contribute. Similar to making donations.
They're not the only things we need, but they're a small thing that becomes valuable when the culture decides we collectively prioritize them.
You couldn't possibly be more right though. Erin kissane has talked a fair bit about that idea in her research. If there are specific design features of Lemmy you wish were different I'd be curious to see discussion posts on this comm about how we can design a space that facilitates more compassionate interactions and healthier community! (Or just to hear about them from you if they're not fully formed enough yet to post about 😀
I don’t think collectively we can stop at intentionally being kind, but forming a coherent design vision to effectively shape human behaviour and social outcomes as a community project is HARD and legitimately takes an actual vision and understanding of incredibly advanced design cobcepts very few have the experience to have any realy expertise in.
Yeah if you want to get a PHD in this stuff, but you could also just become friends with a bunch of artists and ask them how they like this place, and notice how they talk about it feeling free and vibrant or dead and dying.
By the way, we are already doing this work and it barely feels like we are... because the work is a basic product of the world views, shared values and shared explicit ideological and practical goals of this community space.
You don't need this crazy apparatus to make this place a vibrant garden, having expert gardeners is definitely helpful, but it is about getting out of the way of kindness and empowering kindness, not coming up with some grand unified strategy to manipulate people into being better humans.
Basic things like the way a lot of Mastodon instances don't by default prioritize showing the precise number of likes a post has add up to a significant difference in how healthy a social network is for the people in it. You can encourage people to obsess over unhealthy aspects to communication by making the numbers front and center, encouraging people to associate popularity and self worth with those numbers, and creating situations where everybody has to become an expert in gaming getting the best numbers possible even in the realm of their personal life (or so we are made to feel).... or you can de-emphasize the numbers and make it a thing people can check if they want to, but the UI and general philosophy of the place doesn't really encourage or worship that kind of thinking in the first place so why bother?
The reason it feels weird not to have numbers quantifying how successful a social media post/piece of content is that the people who designed these systems were programmers not artists, they didn't understand the incredible farce that attaching the atoms of communication in a community with direct quantification is... would immediately lead to unhealthy environments, they just saw it as the easiest way to make money and identify who the valuable influencers to pay to do ads are.
Love how the point of the post is “hey try to be nice” and everyone sounding off in the comments like “FUCK YOU AND FUCK THOSE SPECIFIC GUYS TOO”
Maybe more people should just post their reviews of vacuums here
Its definitely fatiguing not gonna lie 🙃
Clearly I left it too ambiguous whether I meant Nazis specifically when I said you should try to approach people you disagree with with curiosity. That sounds super sarcastic but I don't mean it that way, I just don't have the energy to reword it
This problem probably could have been anticipated and avoided, it's just hard to always do so perfectly on the internet when speaking to a lot of people you don't know who will interpret what you say in any manner of different ways
Completely right OP, and this is worth repeating as MUCH as possible. More than almost any UX or intake changes, Fediverse will only grow if their experience of the community is good.
Unfortunately, some people have never caught a vibe in their life and it shows lol. A single person with a bad attitude can completely tank your experience in a small community, versus a 20,000 person subreddit where usernames are basically indistinguishable.
some people have never caught a vibe in their life and it shows
Lmao 😂
And yeah, we actually have tangible evidence to support that idea Erin kissane has done a lot of incredible research work on how to effectively design the fediverse and support people in navigating it and one of the earlier things she did was interview people who left Mastodon after having bad experiences and collate that data-
A lot of people's reasons is that when they joined they were met with hostility. It plays a huge role in people's experiences here, and even just from a purely pragmatic perspective it's REALLY important
I feel like this conversation is slipping into equating "makes fediverse grow faster" to "good".
Maybe most people need to have an initial experience where they get pushback for behaving the way they did somewhere else?
That is of course a dangerous rationalization to apply, as it can be used for any kind of shitty treatment of people, but there is also a similar danger to assuming that whatever will bring people in the fastest is inherently good.
I arrived at LEMMY after what I think we very optimistically called the Reddit Collapse. We wish. And I had toe in LEMMY and a few others at Reddit.
Recently with their abusively patronizing redesigning and gamification and just ugly bullshit, I can’t stomach Reddit at all. So LEMMY grows increasingly important, not just to me but to folks who haven’t yet even heard of it.
So, I’ll just say thanks for your post here. I have, I confess, engaged with a couple bullies on LEMMY and I always try to say… I don’t like to do this on LEMMY— and I say that precisely for the reasons you mention.
And as you encourage: I will try to be kinder, even in when feeling… hmm… less than kind.
Happy Lemmy anniversary! I'm glad you're here 😀
And yeah, I can very much understand that, I try to do the same. Sometimes it feels productive to talk with people you don't share perspective with, but if it's just gonna be a flame war I don't wanna go throwing gasoline, nothing is gained by that
Oh and happy Lemmy anniversary. Is it really today? Weird coincidence that I joined today.
I got temporarily banned from Reddit for saying that using ivermectin might kill you, and that was it. I’m done.
It must be, your name shows up highlighted with a little birthday cake in my client 😀
And interesting, ivermectin has that intense of side effects when taken orally? Or do the pseudo-science people who think it cures covid just advocate dosing it ridiculously high?
By coincidence I actually use ivermectin topically for my rosacea, a skin condition. Being a anti-parasitic its useful fro reducing the amount of demodex mites that can aggravate rosacea in some people! I know in people it's mostly used for lice.
D'aww, thanks. Always lovely to see your username and pfp around 😀 take care!
I had something I was thinking about posting for the soulslke comm, I gotta remember what it was!
The Internet can certainly lend itself to discord and hostility. I think that makes it all the more important we think carefully about what kind of spaces we want to build
Both in the sense that we should pursue kindness, but also in the sense that we should be designing our platforms to be healthy social spaces! Another commenter made some really good points about how important it is that we shape our platforms in a way that facilitates the kind of social spaces we want to he a part of 😀
I disagree that kindness should be pursued foremost. Knowledge and truth should be pursued and kindness shouldn’t be allowed in charge because when it is you get shit like language policing which is insanely toxic and stupefying.
You want kindness? Go somewhere designed to be wholesome but please, for the love of honesty and free speech, don’t enforce that crap site wide.
I don't think kindness is at all mutually exclusive with knowledge and truth 😀
To be clear I didn't mean "enforcing kindness" as in like forcing everyone to engage in a specific way or they're banned for not being nice enough
The big corporate platforms are, in a lot of ways, designed for hostility conflict and toxicity. Because they're designed for engagement, and anger drives engagement like nothing else possibly can. Facebook did internal studies and found their algorithm made people miserable, and then kept it that way because with respect profit, it was a great design.
I think we should be thoughtful about the mechanics of the platforms we're building and whether they incentivize people to lash out at eachother, or incentivizing healthy social spaces.
I'm not here in support of some dystopian "be positive or else" insincere niceness platform. But I do think it's worthwhile to shape the culture of the space we spend time in intentionally 😀 I wanna enjoy being here. I'm here in pursuit of worthwhile, sincere interactions with other human beings, not shitty internet flamewars where nothing is gained and everyone walks away more bitter and angry
When you say you think knowledge and truth should be guiding principles, what do you mean? How would you see this platform designed? What way of engaging with eachother do you think is worth pursuing? 😀
That’s a positive perspective.
I’ve seen a lot of that in leftists spaces lately, way more cautious of it now.
Engagement may not be great but it wins. Imo fediverse needs engagement to live long term but maybe doesn’t need toxicity for it, but addiction is inherently a little toxic.
Yes we should be thoughtful, not everyone is unfortunately.
How fucking dare you seek genuine humanity online.
lol
I think letting people say anything (with obvious bannable exceptions like abuse, threats of violence, death, rape, and cp) helps, that fact checking or being wrong should not be bannable, and that people should be given more ways to conflict with each other but in a way that spurns creative debate not pure hostility but that pure hostility has real value to show people whether or not they should change and shouldn’t be shut down outright. Like commenting ‘fuck you’ should be allowed anywhere but not ‘fuck you go kys’ because it’s destructive not constructive.
I think it's worth being warry of making other peoples misery your own entertainment, that's a really good way to end up a deeply cruel person.
What you're describing sounds like Ben Shapiro to me. Scoring cheap points through argumentative tactic rather than actual merit of stance. Personally I see more value in legitimate exchange of ideas where involved parties can all walk away with a more well rounded perspective.
I see debate as an opportunity to learn from and teach others, not about dunking on people in pursuit of humiliating them
Just my two cents.
Lol my argument automatically has no merit without you hearing any of it. That's like bigotry or something.
I guess Ben Shapiro argues with people that aren't media trained to make his stance look better, do you want me to say people Ben Shapiro argues make some awesome argument all the time without exception?
I'll teach you that it's not on me to make your arguments, get your evidence. I just put it on myself to communicate my arguments and poke holes in other people's arguments
my argument automatically has no merit without you hearing any of it
I did read both of your comments in full and think about them, but if you have more specific thoughts on why you hold the perspective you do I'd be open to hearing them 😀 (full disclosure though, it might take me a bit to get back to you- with how much I've engaged with this thread I'm starting to kinda run out of social energy 😅)
I guess Ben Shapiro argues with people that aren't media trained to make his stance look better, do you want me to say people Ben Shapiro argues make some awesome argument all the time without exception?
Its a little hard to follow exactly what you mean towards the end, I think there are a couple typos, but no. I just personally see a distinction between productive conversation and making a game of humiliating people buy talking circles around them regardless of the merits of their arguments.
I can't know that you exactly meant the latter, but it's kind of a spectrum and when you said "I like pissing people off then making much of them for not being able to defend their position" it did sound like you were advocating the idea that it's good or productive to take joy in making people feel foolish for their inability to argue as well as you. I think there's a big difference between the merits of a stance and someone's ability to argue them. That's why I expressed I disagreed. And that's why I made the connection to Ben shapio, he's really good at arguing, and makes sport of trying to make people look bad when they make the sort of arguments I personally agree with.
I'll teach you that it's not on me to make your arguments, get your evidence. I just put it on myself to communicate my arguments and poke holes in other people's arguments
I think I see argument as much less of a zero sum game than you do. I don't wanna score points, I wanna learn about what people think and teach them why I think differently.
You're not wrong to point out flaws in peoples arguments, or to expect them to make their case for themselves, but that's not the same thing as treating it like a game to win. I think the former is appropriate and healthy, I think the latter is destructive and doesn't actually accomplish anything 🤷♂️
I should give quiche a chance...?
I like quiche okay 😅 very eggy but it can be pretty tasty 🤷♂️
I totally agree with your message.
These days everyone who is not ultra-left easily gets labelled as Nazi, similarly everyone who brings up any rather left argument will be called a woke snowflake.
Thus, any dialog is immediately shut down. Listen, understand, exchange arguments.
That is what unites everyone who believes in liberal values.
These days everyone who is not ultra-left easily gets labelled as Nazi, similarly everyone who brings up any rather left argument will be called a woke snowflake.
What the hell are you smoking? Have you turned on the news? Paid attention to politicians? Check in with how exactly companies chose to sustain and expand DEI (A <- where did the accessibility go we wonder?) after Trump and DOGE attacked it?
You are so wrong, if the universe repeated at the edge of itself like in the old Asteroids arcade game, you would have long ago crossed into Very Right by slamming straight past the most extreme extent of Completely Wrong.
The thing in this post about curiosity isn't just a lemmy/online thing.
The vast majority of people are mainly interested in themselves. Like - if you have trouble on dates, making friends, getting along at work, anything to do with people in general - approaching them with a sense of sincere curiosity will completely change things overnight.
Get people to talk about themselves, be supportive in your discussions with them, and shut the fuck up wherever possible and suddenly you're interesting, a good person, kind, whatever - traits you've done exactly fuck all to demonstrate, but that people will swear are true because you seem interested in them.
It's fucking bonkers but it's true. Curiosity can change your world.
The only humane, sensible and practical definition of intelligence that actually gets you anywhere productive is defining intelligence as a practiced and maintained sense of curiosity about the world around you, especially the world you know little of.
For example, Trump is a fucking idiot, because he never does this ever and neither do people who worship him.
@Cris_Color@lemmy.world being nice helps establish the "tone", but I'm not sure that wouldn't change with another "API event" on Reddit that results in another, larger mass migration.
Another suggestion I have for college graduates is to ask your alma mater if they are going to start using something other than commercial social to engage with alumni.
Most universities don't want to make mistakes investing in the bleeding edge, but they are quick to follow. When a few schools do something, many more quickly copy that. They are also looking for low cost wins. Their engagement numbers are already telling them that Xwiiter no longer works to reach alumni or potential students.
If even a handful of alumni suggest a change at the right time, that is often enough to get them to give federated social a try.
That is when the less toxic "tone" really helps.
@Cris_Color@lemmy.world being nice helps establish the “tone”, but I’m not sure that wouldn’t change with another “API event” on Reddit that results in another, larger mass migration.
The way I see it - the early adopters set the tone of a place and new arrivals are more likely to adopt that approach. So it is important to be kind now, so people will be kind later.
The way I see it - the early adopters set the tone of a place and new arrivals are more likely to adopt that approach. So it is important to be kind now, so people will be kind later.
Even if a bunch of people flood in and "dilute" that culture, that will never erase the fact that if we make sure to be as nice as possible as early adopters of the fediverse, that any corruption of that initial culture will be remembered as such.
The narrative of this place as being about being nicer, kinder (still very flawed) and more accepting will live on, no matter what, even if we fail to meet that ideal for periods of time.
Personally though, I think it matters what version of people you invite in, so if as an early adopter I try to invite in the best versions of people (which includes actively trying to invite in the best version of me) because those best versions of people will turn around and invite in the best versions of other people.
I don't know why this isn't considered an old adage at this point, but it is fun as fuck being part of a kindness snowball, it is empowering, heart warming and inspiring all at the same time. Plus the thing you help participate in creating just grows in power so much, you can't help you did something real even if you were just a tiny tiny tiny tiny part of it.
I disagree, if political discourse can't survive public debate, then it isn't a very good political ideology.
We have been artificially hampered on other platforms by having to be nice to the nazis, we don't have to do that here and I fully welcome such debate because none of their abhorrent ideologies hold up under scrutiny
As for left leaning political debate, we have ALWAYS argued with each other. That is one of our greatest strengths that we just don't all into line with everything the top says. Also one of our greatest weaknesses.
But to stifle that artificially will just force it to bleed into other discussions.
I say up with political discourse and let the marketplace of ideas be conceptually free of bias and the results will be that humanity in general considers nazis pretty bad people
disagree, if political discourse can’t survive public debate, then it isn’t a very good political ideology.
They made it clear they're talking about spaces and topics not about politics. People who feel entitled and compelled to make everything a political culture war are insufferable. Made worse when they call everyone who disagrees with them a Nazi. The word has lost all meaning now.
I'm sorry the world is so scary you have to segment parts of it away from your daily life, I don't have that weakness
Nearly everything has a political facet because politics is at the core of how humanity can even live in this modern way.
Not talking about politics at the dinner table is how we got here and I will not sit by idly while people like you perpetuate that disservice
Yes -- you should definetely segment away politics from some parts of your life. You should not fully disengage with it, but take a breather every now and then. Go for a walk, talk with some people about a hobby you enjoy despite your differences or just take a prolonged toilet break.
I find it infinitely exhausting that it seems like everything online these days evolves into a political discussion. I recently saw someone asking about how they can make more time for reading in their day -- someone mentioned that they read in the morning when working from home while having their morning coffee. And someone barged in and were like "Oh MuSt Be NiCE to HAve ThE TiMe FOR ThaT! No, soMe of Us Have To CommUTE 2 HouRS each way DaiLY BeCAuSe Of LAte StAGe CaPItalisM". And then it evolved into some revolutionary eat the rich stuff from there -- which i for the most part can follow.
But it was a post about asking how to make more time for reading... How did it end up with revolution? I personally believe the main problem with injecting politics into everything is that it becomes predictable and bland. Just like my example above. It's an interesting discussion for sure! But perhaps don't force it down everyone's throat all the time. It's like that friend who has a hobby that they just wont stop talking about all. the. fucking. time. It dissolves the seriousness of the discussion and makes other people tired of it.
Again, i'm not saying abstain or fully disengage from politics. But for gods sake, let people take a break every now and then if they're able to do so, and for five minutes just focus on something joyful eventho everything is going to shit at the moment.
Here are some more specific examples to think about!
Thanks for taking the time to read my thoughts 😀
Aka the compliment sandwich. A technique I personally dislike. Be honest and open with your feedback in a positive way, don't try to hide it between compliments. If your feedback is simply negative, keep it to yourself.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compli…
rhetorical technique to deliver criticism
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