This is a whole different train of thought (mine is, I won't speak for yours) and I don't wanna derail my original thought but that's a thing I've been thinking about a lot lately.

I agree with you, and subscribe to the idea of tolerance as a social contract that, once broken, is no longer owed to the one who broke the contract.

At the same time, I've also learned that very explicitly, feeling persecuted is a requisite ingredient in radicalizing people into hate groups. And that at an individual scale, it's generally undeserved compassion that helps deradicalize them. We know this from the accounts of people who managed to leave hate groups- a little while ago there was really good (and long) interview with someone who used to be leader of a white nationalist group where he talked a fair bit about that idea, since he now works with a nonprofit that helps families and friends support and deradicalize loved ones, but it's far from the only account

At present I'm really not sure how I personally reconcile those two things I belive to be true. The Nazi bar analogy is real.

I know wading into this more specific conversion runs the risk of immediately derailing what I was trying to start a discussion about, but I figured I'd share my thoughts. If anyone reads this and has thoughts to share (though I'd prefer not to get 50 comments just saying I suck for having complicated views on what we do about the predicament the US and world is in with the rise of fascist ideology. I'm interested in what's effective in terms of fixing the problem just like you are) I'd be interested in hearing them. I'm still looking for a way to synthesize my beliefs into a coherent whole.

Edit: thought I'd add the interview for anyone curious. I don't see everything exactly the way he does but I think understanding the problem and exactly how it works is necessary of we're going to address it, and I think his account is a really useful glimpse into certain aspects of how that world works

How US Neo-Nazism Actually Works | Authorized Account | Insider

Arno Michaelis is a former white nationalist skinhead, lead singer of the neo-Nazi metal band Centurion, and member of Hammerskin Nation, one of the most vio...

^YouTube

i think if someone's intolerant, pointing out that they're wrong is something appropriate, but picking a fight over it is not worth it. it makes you like that person in that meme:

edit: in bad cases, report it and move on with your life.

I can definitely understand that. I think in a lot of ways that problem is driven by how much of a political echo chamber lemmy is. Any time there's a narower range of beliefs I feel like you can see those beliefs getting more extreme, or expressed in more extreme and toxic ways.

I honestly don't really know how to improve it given the state of the world. It feels like the range of political beliefs keeps getting compressed into two groups and it makes it harder and harder to tolerate the beliefs of those further from yourself. And for valid reasons.

And the more justified the contempt for people of other political views gets the harder it gets to figure out how, culturally, we manage the justified anger that comes from how deeply broken everything is.

Elon musk is doing actual literal Nazi salutes and peoples anger about that is justified. And at the same time I'm not sure what way of acting on that anger (and acting on the problem) yields anything other than radializing people teetering on the edge of extremism.

I'm glad I don't really see actual Nazis on lemmy. Its nice that there's less debate about the legitimacy of people's humanity.

And at the same time anger is deeply toxic to healthy interaction and drives behaviors that I genuinely don't think make the problems prompting people's anger any better.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts candidly, a lot of this thread is a love-fest and that's wonderful and puts a smile on my face, but it's at least as important to talk about the unhealthy aspects of the fediverse's culture

It may not do much depending on the mods/admins, but it never hurts to report and downvote comments or posts like that.

Emphasis on reporting there, as I think sometimes that stuff lingers around because people have made a habit of only downvoting and blocking those doing that regularly. I realize in your examples it's more likely bias or bigotry respectively, but still.

Report first, then downvote and block. Doing only the latter only makes your experience a little better, the former may help the community.

I do report them, but some communities seem to encourage it and leave it up.

I guess I can block the community, but it's still affecting the "Lemmy culture" at large...

Thank you very much, I do my best 😀

By the way I love your username lol. Take care!

Lol. Porn does make the internet go round

I already did that, but not on this account >.>

serious question but how do/could you formalize your rejection of right-wingers? what is it exactly that you take issue with?

i'm asking because i talk to a lot of people (also some who identify as "right-wingers") and i'd like to know what exactly are the issues that bother people, so i can forward it to them. it would help me bring up better arguments if i know what other people are thinking.

so, i've collected the following list of things to take issue with so far:

• right-wingers often think that people who don't work, don't deserve to eat, which clearly puts enterpreneurial spirit above human life, which is clearly illegal
• right-wingers often take brunt and direct actions, which can be uncomfortable to more sensitive people.
• right-wingers typically neglect far-sightedness, seeking only short-term profits (looking at you, quarterly profit).

tell me if i forgot something.

That is a very specific interpretation of what I meant by this post.

To be perfectly honest, I really wasn't making the point you should approve of nazis. Just that maybe it's worth putting effort into being kind to one another...

For example, I constantly see leftists online biting eachother's heads off (including on lemmy) for having slightly different left-wing ideology. Its not like "approach people you disagree with with curiosity" means specifically actual neonazis, and approaching someone with curiosity doesn't mean telling people "your idea is correct and you're right for thinking it"

It means trying to understand it. You can dislike someone and still gain from better understanding their worldview. Even if you think it's harmful. Even if you think it's illogical. Even if you think they're wrong. Curiousity isn't tacit approval.

If you want to think about it cynically you can consider it creating allies and knowing your enemy.

All of that ignoring the fact that if you look around, this platform is almost exclusively left wing 😅

I understand we disagree on certain things, that's okay, these are just my thoughts on the subject, and it's a profoundly important one, so I can appreciate why people would have different strongly held beliefs on it. Hope you have a good one 😀

It makes them feel validated, they're not capable of self reflection

From my experience it hurts more than helps to engage with fascists/right wingers because you give them a platform.

well i'd argue that setting teslas on fire is property damage, while slashing social security is murder or at the very least neglect of duties that led to deaths of many people.

it is clear that property damage is the minor damage of the two, according to contemporary interpretation of law.

about the guillotining:

same story. talkings about guillotining people is a reasonable threat when the alternative is to let the billionaires upend your roots and your lifes through horrible policy decisions. it's an act of self-defence at some point, i'd say.

though i agree with you at least partially that the US is different than say europe.

in the US, the mindset of "hard work" is more far-spread, as it the mindset that people who don't work, don't deserve to eat. that's just the US being the US i guess.

Well do you?

Also I meant in general. Those types of posts and comments are highly upvoted in here.

I knew that would happen, but you're not wrong 😅

As I've alluded to, there's a lot of justifiable anger about the state of the world, and you can see that hurt reflected in people's immediate response. The feelings driving that "conclusion jumping" valid and understandable, even if I don't think it's productive

There is no easy way to cope with fascism on your doorstep, or taking over your home and threatening to throw you out of it 🙁

Originally I listed all the extra examples/suggestions I put in my comment in the actual post itself, but I have a bad habit of making things way too long so I moved all the smaller more specific things to the comment. I think maybe it would have been more clear I'm not saying you should approve of Nazis had they still been in the post.

Generalizing is a logical fallacy. Not all Republicans are Nazis.

Some are rotten. Some are good people that just got duped.

It's not black and white.