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Linus Torvalds Speaks on the the divide between Rust and C Linux developers an the future Linux. Will things like fragmentation among the open source community hurt the Linux Kernel? We'll listen to the Creator of Linux.
For the full key note, checkout:
The Register's summary: Torvalds weighs in on 'nasty' Rust vs C for Linux debate
This is like vi vs Emacs with 'religious overtones,’ project chief laughsRichard Speed (The Register)
I took notes for the benefit of anyone who doesn't like their info in video form. My attempt to summarize what Linus says:
He enjoys the arguments, it's nice that Rust has livened up the discussion. It shows that people care.
It's more contentious than it should be sometimes with religious overtones reminiscent of vi versus emacs. Some like it, some don't, and that's okay.
Too early to see if Rust in the kernel ultimately fails or succeeds, that will take time, but he's optimistic about it.
The kernel is not normal C. They use tools that enforce rules that are not part of the language, including memory safety infrastructure. This has been incrementally added over a long time, which is what allowed people to do it without the kind of outcry that the Rust efforts produce by trying to change things more quickly.
There aren't many languages that can deal with system issues, so unless you want to use assembler it's going to be C, C-like, or Rust. So probably there will be some systems other than Linux that do use Rust.
If you make your own he's looking forward to seeing it.
So probably there will be some systems other than Linux that do use Rust
There's one called Redox that is entirely written in Rust. Still in fairly early stages, though. redox-os.org/
How is it that no matter what the damn topic is, Linus always seems to be the most level-headed in the room? I really admire him for that...
Edit: Lol, Linus, not Linux. Linus. xD
Linus did have emotion control issues and was not always completely rational, but he's gone a long way towards being incredibly responsible to his child that powers the world.
Also, he long understands that Linux ain't a hobby project, which some programmers still get to think.
I took notes for the benefit of anyone who doesn’t like their info in video form.
I love you.
So probably there will be some systems other than Linux that do use Rust.
Isn't there Redox OS?
Edit: yes, it's still alive and kicking.
Linus Torvalds has made some interesting comments on the Rust vs C debate in the Linux kernel. He enjoys the discussions because it shows that people care about the project, even though things can get a little heated like the classic vi vs emacs arguments. The Rust conversation is still in its early days, and while Linus is optimistic about its future in the kernel, it’s too soon to say whether it will ultimately succeed or fail.
He points out that the Linux kernel isn't just "normal" C it's C with additional tools and rules that ensure memory safety and other protections. This incremental approach has allowed for changes without causing the kind of backlash that Rust has faced with its more dramatic changes.
At the end of the day, the kernel has to deal with system-level issues, and unless you're working in assembly, it’s going to be C, C-like, or Rust. Linus is looking forward to seeing how other systems outside of Linux might adopt Rust for their own needs.
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The existing maintainers won’t live forever, having Rust in the Kernel is a bet on the future.
You're drastically reducing your talent base by requiring membership in two groups of experts. Well done.
The comma splice gives it away, but you're new at organizing groups and practicing set theory, aren't you?
Do you have something against it? People hate on it like it's a fad or whatever. But, the people who like it, LOVE it.
Rust is the most admired language, more than 80% of developers that use it want to use it again next year.
survey.stackoverflow.co/2023/#…
Rust is on its seventh year as the most loved language with 87% of developers saying they want to continue using it.
survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/#…
8 years in a row. I can understand the perspective of someone who spent years honing their craft in C/C++ and not wanting to learn a new language. But, the Harassment of the "Rust in Linux Lead" is ridiculous. I'm not saying you are harassing. But, saying it's a tech bro thing is just negative and doesn't do justice to how many devs just like rust.
How long can the C languages maintain their primacy in the kernel?Ars Technica
Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that you use Coq to prove your theroem, then need to rewrite it in something else. I think there is some OCaml integration, but OCaml—while having create performance for a high level language & fairly predictable output—isn’t well-suited for very low-level kernel code. The difference in the ATS case (with the ML syntax similarity 🤘) is you can a) write it all in a single language & b) you can interweave proof, type, & value-level code thru the language instead of separating them; which means your functions need to make the proof-level asserts inside their bodies to satisfy the compiler if written with these requirements, or the type level asserting the linear type usage with value-level requirements to if allocating memory, must deallocate memory as well as compeletly prevent double free & use after free.
For those in the back: Rust can’t do this with its affine types only preventing using a resource multiple times (at most once), where linear types say you must use once & can only use once.
This video is full of jarring edits which initially made me wonder if someone had cut out words or phrases to create an abbreviated version. But, then I realized there are way too many of them to have been done manually. I checked the full original video and from the few edits i manually checked it seems like it is just inconsequential pauses etc that were removed: for instance, when Linus says "the other side of that picture" in the original there is an extra "p" sound which is removed here.
Yet another irritating and unnecessary application of neural networks, I guess.
Linus Torvalds Speaks on the the divide between Rust and C Linux developers an the future Linux. Will things like fragmentation among the open source communi...YouTube
I don't want to watch a video about it.
I'd like to know it, but a couple of sentences wouldn't have hurt
@Kairos @ProgrammingSocks If you are used to being careful, it should not be that much harder, but the plethora of use after free, buffer overruns, buffer underruns, pointers being used before initialized, etc, fixed in every single point release of the kernel makes it clear for many that is not the case.
I expect there are a lot of people who familiar with C have never moved on to other languages because of memory management issues. Garbage collection is inefficient and results in non-deterministic behavior, and that up until rust has been pretty much the only option available.
Now we have a new language that fixes memory allocation errors without a performance penalty. I am sure there are many that, like myself, see it as a blessing but there are only so many hours in the day and it will take some time to learn.
Ultimately because of the sheer number of man-hours spent on fixing the kind of bugs introduced by poor memory management, and the increasing criticality of proper operations, a segfault in the middle of a automatic driving operating in heavy traffic for example, would not be good, and now airbus is looking at pilotless aircraft, these kinds of applications leave no room for error and I think will drive mainstream adoption of rust.
Yes
But the trade off is well worth it.
This summary seemed pretty good though.
kbal
2024-09-18 21:46:49
1, 90 or 9 minutes, in any case it needs a speaker to be watched, and often mobile data cap when not at home.
and a fair amount of rewinds for a lot of non-native english ~~speakers~~ knowers
I also dont like videos for this stuff. Summarized using kagi's universal summarizer, sharing here: