that was going so well until the mcarthian redscare succumbing to the propaganda scaring away with the broad misapplied term "socialism", getting the solution baby thrown out with the manufactured problem bathwater.

vigilance, the price we must constantly pay, to guard against these psyop flies in the ointment.

seeing this again, i should have just quoted bakunin. ;)

“Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice; socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality”

― Bakunin

idk any other one liner that so immediately dispels the mcarthian conflationary deception, revealing not all socialism is authoritarian; socialism is not inherently authoritarian; you can have freedom and socialism.
might even lead some to one day recognise some forms of authoritarianism called socialism are oxymoronic, and inherently not socialism, not living up to the definitive ideals espoused of socialism, at all, and was only called socialism to appeal to people when really it was anti-socialist fascist-hegemony… towit we now have the mcarthian redscare hangover to contend with, having so many people believe the mis-labeling, avoiding the very thing that can save them, and so in their mis-belief, run into the hands of their oppressor as if salvation. painful to watch. #ProblemReactionSolution #Orwellian
No need to had our power over to either council nor robber-barons.

@Digit So would you consider your beliefs anarchist? I'm guessing your responses are regarding the line in this meme "Socialism isn't about making everyone "equal"? I tend to believe that the trend toward more socialism in American Government/society does make the lazy dependent on the state but not necessarily "the elites" unless you believe US Government is controlled by a cabal of elitists.

In any case interesting quote by Bakunin. Where I disagree with his quote is that the difference for me is that I don't consider freedom a privilege but God-given right. That said, I understand his viewpoint that the absence of any socialist programs in a society could be viewed as injustice. Healthcare is a good example of this when in the United States - citizens die because s/he does not have insurance to cover the cost of healthcare resulting in treatment to stabilize the result, but not the cause of disease. On the flip side of that statement, history has shown that socialist / communist governments which historically begin in a more authoritarian form of Government, have failed as they move toward more freedom/free market/capitalism due partially to their inability to maintain an economy strong enough to pay for socialism. It sounds good on paper but the greed of mankind make socialism unlikely to be successful while capitalism properly implemented seems better positioned to support a free society.

@FlippedOut: Healthcare is not a right as no one has the right to presume upon another's time and/or effort. You'll note that socialized healthcare fails everywhere it's attempted as well.

Capitalism was the best system possible. It died decades ago and was replaced by cronyism.

False logic, Digit. There is no socialism or communism wherein freedom is a component.

thanks for that assertive contradiction. i got a kick out of apparently being told i'd offered false logic, then followed by the fallacy of asserting the negative like that, as if all knowing of the whole set.

i quite like bruce parry's bits on the penan being egalitarian, if you're curious and interested in exploring (at least intellectually at a distance) more ways of living and challenging your assumptions, that's a nice one to consider a quick search on. the way he puts it sometimes, is that it was the first "truly" egalitarian people he'd met in all his travels with different tribes. for one to consider.

though more importantly, if you only ever drive by looking in the rear view mirror, you need to be taken out of the driver's seat. lol. the arrogant form of naive realism where all you know is presumed all there is, and equating apparent absence of evidence with absolute evidence of absence, is bad enough, but then to attempt close us off from, and steer us away from, new innovations to better, on grounds of them havig not been... that really caps our potential to just some level of hell, afaict.

... goes against some of the promise of capitalism that it's oh so innovative (along with its claims of efficiency, both of which often get demonstrated as false).

I'd love to love anarcho capitalism, but i dont see how that's maintained and prevented from the economic mechanism of wealth consolidation and monopoly, and you end up losing liberty, no longer in a system of anarcho-capitalism, but drifted rather irrevokably to authoritarian forms of capitalism, because money is power, and as it accumulates and consolidates, by it taking money to make money and the more you have the less things cost, further and further, until you have monopoly and a completely broken unworking economic system.

needs tempered with something else. anarcho-something, for sure... no ilegitimate hierarchies please and thankyou, yup... so whilst there's the mechanistic authoritarianwards-drift vacuum of the anarcho economic-rightwing to aspire to preventing via ~*shrug-cringe*~... uhh, competition taking out the top.... contrast to... on the anarcho economic-left, there's the concern to not over-councilize. more a mere philosophical conundrum. not an economic mechanism towards tyranny baked in.

@FlippedOut: Healthcare is not a right as no one has the right to presume upon another’s time and/or effort. You’ll note that socialized healthcare fails everywhere it’s attempted as well.

and while that carries on making the same certain assertive logical fallacies, let me jump ahead in partial agreement with:

Capitalism was the best system possible. It died decades ago and was replaced by cronyism.

yeah, maybe like in the 1950s? that when? or would you have considered that already too much corporatism and cronyism and oligarchy creeping in? [edit: yeah, there's an important point most seem to miss... if you're already in an authoritarian economic-rightwing system, trying to head to the economic-left wing, with no effort to take it from authoritarian to libertarian, you end up traversing far worse forms. FREEDOM FIRST! priorities straight. then we can quibble over the minutia of resource management, like, in general, whether its better to advocate more for sharing kindness or more for protectionist dog-eat-dog isolated striving against hardship as individuals. ... anyway, idk when the golden promised land of capitalism was, but at least back then you could still hope to do well, and even better than your parents... rather than the crap we have now. hozed by cabals of crooks exploiting us all directions, including usury.]

though, again, that's a staggering imbalance of certainty and imagination to assert it the best possible. such levels of certainty, make me check myself, that i've not become hypnotised by some spell of some kind. please don't truncate human potential like that, that we're reduced to cogs in the machine, to mere capita, rather than full sentient feeling beings due right treatment and worth at least aspiring to a better socio-economic paradigm than one of exploitation. new forms of crypto-slavery are still slavery. the emancipatory potentials of so many innovations get suppressed and secreted, to maintain the leverage of the exploiters, despite the potentials of the suppressed technology far exceeding the potential offered by enslaving everybody under manufactured economic duress.

aw heck, i might as well just quote bucky on the matter:

“We should do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living. It is a fact today that one in ten thousand of us can make a technological breakthrough capable of supporting all the rest. The youth of today are absolutely right in recognizing this nonsense of earning a living. We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because, according to Malthusian Darwinian theory he must justify his right to exist. So we have inspectors of inspectors and people making instruments for inspectors to inspect inspectors. The true business of people should be to go back to school and think about whatever it was they were thinking about before somebody came along and told them they had to earn a living.” ~ Buckminster Fuller

oh, right, yeah, verbosity disliked... i'll stop proof-reading before i add more, and will stop before i write another similar amount to other things said in this thread so far. lol

@Robert Dinse
re:

@Digit Verbosity != validity.

yeah, failing of visual thinkers. i shoulda just used a picture... or a graph... politicalcompass.org/

Because one person can make a break through that can take care of many doesn’t mean he will,

yep.

if he gets no reward for his efforts,

it's kinda its own reward... and many inventors like the idea of inventing something to benefit humanity etc.... but i get your economic coercive/incentive gist, yeah

he won’t bother

thousand do, many more yet when when all are not made to do unecessary drudgery and busywork ... like bucky said...

and that, and the fact that leaders always distribute wealth abundantly to themselves and little to anyone else, is why communism doesn’t work.

you lost me with that last one. surely, the follow on from that is why having leaders doesnt work.

decentralise, go anarcho... whether you do that in a style more kropotkin or more proudhon, i, more midarchistical nearer bakunin, dgaf. anything in that freedomist neck of the woods would be a shitload better than either nightmares of councilism drift to worsening authoritarianism, or nightmares of capitalism drift to worsening authoritarianism (if that's even possible, in some minds, given, the capita, in capitalism, is people, just reduced to mere ecconomic units... ) ... point being... freedom first.

if the emma goldmans and the ayn rands of the world put their heads together, they could defeat many hitlers, pol pots, and pinnochaets. and if they do it right... they'd not even need to.

yeah, that's a big folly in many systems. some not only nullify your rewards, but nullify your efforts, and some even invert your efforts, and some even invert everybody's rewards.

would be nice if our elections were like an assortment of different systems to implement, and able to expand each and change some sliders and check-boxes around, creating a configuration file of how you'd like things to be, rather than a grunt mark on a paper (or even a mark on a screen of a "trust us"(TM) proprietary voting machine (bol!)), and everybody able to add more questions and configurations to further advance the options and inspiration for how people can have better say... and i'll bet there'd be a lot less "there should be unfairness and suffering" votes. heh.

i'd vote for get return from efforts as well as invest in enabling everybody to get on with investing their efforts with security of knowing they'd not be getting a boot in their face.

yeah, that authoritarian centralised statist end of communism.

at the other end, where anarchism and communism meet, you get anacho-communism... decentralisation and empowerment for everybody n all that stuff... freedom supposedly held in everybody's mutual understanding another's freedom and prosperity is their own freedom and prosperity too. no more need to manufacture scarcities.

at the other end, where anarchism and communism meet, you get anacho-communism… decentralisation and empowerment for everybody n all that stuff… freedom supposedly held in everybody’s mutual understanding another’s freedom and prosperity is their own freedom and prosperity too. no more need to manufacture scarcities.

This is closer to what I mean.

Literally, This

decentralization and empowerment for everybody n all that stuff… freedom supposedly held in everybody’s mutual understanding another’s freedom and prosperity is their own freedom and prosperity too. no more need to manufacture scarcities, if you feel in danger you can respond with out the fear of retaliation from a foreign assist.

idk, i'm not well read up on the various political philosophies yet. i cant teach it well and clear enough i don't think, but, it's just good to know that it's there, that the situation isnt just binary or linear, but is at least planar, and perchance even a third worthwhile important elucidating dimension too. out of not-even-flatland we go with our political systems, and the cartoons first past the post etc causes to grief us with.

seen flatland? it's good. ... or imagining the 10th dimension? good stuff. handy to cross apply to politics n bollocks.

.... oh, there's that post i thought i posted.

oh, and, as for the meme's message at the start...
gun control... :3

there, i said it. ;D

lol.

been long time satirically waiting in the wind for that right-to-bear to defend and take back... have had the mutual goading of "hows the 2nd workin for ya? taken back n protected yet?" "how's that idealism philosophising workin for ya? got your spaceships for everybody yet?" not a million miles from ; and perhaps only slightly oblique from :

but like i say... oh if only the emma goldmans and ayn rands could get together to work on a freedom-positive combination of their philosophies, we'd have this licked. freedom and security, personal and property rights are preserved freedomwards possible perhaps in the abundance "if" 'only' we had "all Naruto-run together". the "boo"-into-pappy's-arms-we-react is a tiresome squanderance of our potential.

.... oh, there's that post i thought i posted.