Linus Torvalds: Speaks on the Rust vs C Linux Divide
Linus Torvalds Speaks on the the divide between Rust and C Linux developers an the future Linux. Will things like fragmentation among the open source community hurt the Linux Kernel? We'll listen to the Creator of Linux.
For the full key note, checkout:
The Register's summary: Torvalds weighs in on 'nasty' Rust vs C for Linux debate
Torvalds weighs in on 'nasty' Rust vs C for Linux debate
This is like vi vs Emacs with 'religious overtones,’ project chief laughsRichard Speed (The Register)
This entry was edited (8 months ago)
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ProgrammingSocks
Unknown parent • • •like this
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Kairos
in reply to ProgrammingSocks • • •like this
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kbal
in reply to pnutzh4x0r • • •I took notes for the benefit of anyone who doesn't like their info in video form. My attempt to summarize what Linus says:
He enjoys the arguments, it's nice that Rust has livened up the discussion. It shows that people care.
It's more contentious than it should be sometimes with religious overtones reminiscent of vi versus emacs. Some like it, some don't, and that's okay.
Too early to see if Rust in the kernel ultimately fails or succeeds, that will take time, but he's optimistic about it.
The kernel is not normal C. They use tools that enforce rules that are not part of the language, including memory safety infrastructure. This has been incrementally added over a long time, which is what allowed people to do it without the kind of outcry that the Rust efforts produce by trying to change things more quickly.
There aren't many languages that can deal with system issues, so unless you want to use assembler it's going to be C, C-like, or Rust. So probably there will be some systems other than Linux that do use Rust.
If you make your own he's looking forward to seeing it.
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pnutzh4x0r
in reply to kbal • • •like this
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GenderNeutralBro
in reply to kbal • • •There's one called Redox that is entirely written in Rust. Still in fairly early stages, though. redox-os.org/
Redox - Your Next(Gen) OS - Redox - Your Next(Gen) OS
www.redox-os.orgJetpackJackson
in reply to kbal • • •pastermil
in reply to kbal • • •gwilikers
in reply to kbal • • •thingsiplay
in reply to gwilikers • • •EveryMuffinIsNowEncrypted
in reply to kbal • • •How is it that no matter what the damn topic is, Linus always seems to be the most level-headed in the room? I really admire him for that...
Edit: Lol, Linus, not Linux. Linus. xD
Allero
in reply to EveryMuffinIsNowEncrypted • • •Linus did have emotion control issues and was not always completely rational, but he's gone a long way towards being incredibly responsible to his child that powers the world.
Also, he long understands that Linux ain't a hobby project, which some programmers still get to think.
Vincent
in reply to kbal • • •gomp
in reply to kbal • • •I love you.
MonkderVierte
in reply to kbal • • •Isn't there Redox OS?
Edit: yes, it's still alive and kicking.
operating system written in Rust
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)corsicanguppy
in reply to kbal • • •You write "vi versus the world" funny.
caseyweederman
in reply to corsicanguppy • • •milicent_bystandr
in reply to corsicanguppy • • •Rozaŭtuno
in reply to kbal • • •HeartyOfGlass
in reply to kbal • • •Psyhackological
in reply to kbal • • •C is more mature than Rust so we wait for Rust to shine
Rust can overcome some complex things in C and vice versa
alyxbond
in reply to kbal • • •Linus Torvalds has made some interesting comments on the Rust vs C debate in the Linux kernel. He enjoys the discussions because it shows that people care about the project, even though things can get a little heated like the classic vi vs emacs arguments. The Rust conversation is still in its early days, and while Linus is optimistic about its future in the kernel, it’s too soon to say whether it will ultimately succeed or fail.
He points out that the Linux kernel isn't just "normal" C it's C with additional tools and rules that ensure memory safety and other protections. This incremental approach has allowed for changes without causing the kind of backlash that Rust has faced with its more dramatic changes.
At the end of the day, the kernel has to deal with system-level issues, and unless you're working in assembly, it’s going to be C, C-like, or Rust. Linus is looking forward to seeing how other systems outside of Linux might adopt Rust for their own needs.
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officialtopfollowapk.com (Official TopFollow Apk)Nanook
in reply to Kairos • — (Shoreline, WA, USA) •@Kairos @ProgrammingSocks If you are used to being careful, it should not be that much harder, but the plethora of use after free, buffer overruns, buffer underruns, pointers being used before initialized, etc, fixed in every single point release of the kernel makes it clear for many that is not the case.
I expect there are a lot of people who familiar with C have never moved on to other languages because of memory management issues. Garbage collection is inefficient and results in non-deterministic behavior, and that up until rust has been pretty much the only option available.
Now we have a new language that fixes memory allocation errors without a performance penalty. I am sure there are many that, like myself, see it as a blessing but there are only so many hours in the day and it will take some time to learn.
Ultimately because of the sheer number of man-hours spent on fixing the kind of bugs introduced by poor memory management, and the increasing criticality of proper operations, a segfault in the middle of a automatic driving operating in heavy traffic for example, would not be good, and now airbus is looking at pilotless aircraft, these kinds of applications leave no room for error and I think will drive mainstream adoption of rust.
atzanteol
in reply to Kairos • • •blackbrook
Unknown parent • • •Kairos
in reply to atzanteol • • •Yes
But the trade off is well worth it.
ryannathans
in reply to Kairos • • •gerdesj
in reply to ryannathans • • •atzanteol
in reply to Kairos • • •Kairos
in reply to atzanteol • • •thingsiplay
in reply to pnutzh4x0r • • •corsicanguppy
in reply to thingsiplay • • •You're drastically reducing your talent base by requiring membership in two groups of experts. Well done.
The comma splice gives it away, but you're new at organizing groups and practicing set theory, aren't you?
thingsiplay
in reply to corsicanguppy • • •x00za
in reply to thingsiplay • • •λλλ
in reply to x00za • • •Do you have something against it? People hate on it like it's a fad or whatever. But, the people who like it, LOVE it.
survey.stackoverflow.co/2023/#…
survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/#…
8 years in a row. I can understand the perspective of someone who spent years honing their craft in C/C++ and not wanting to learn a new language. But, the Harassment of the "Rust in Linux Lead" is ridiculous. I'm not saying you are harassing. But, saying it's a tech bro thing is just negative and doesn't do justice to how many devs just like rust.
Rust in Linux lead retires rather than deal with more “nontechnical nonsense”
Ars Technicax00za
in reply to λλλ • • •λλλ
in reply to x00za • • •x00za
in reply to λλλ • • •zygo_histo_morpheus
in reply to λλλ • • •λλλ
in reply to zygo_histo_morpheus • • •refalo
in reply to λλλ • • •Nanook
in reply to λλλ • •Linux reshared this.
nous
in reply to Kairos • • •Vincent
Unknown parent • • •This summary seemed pretty good though.
kbal
2024-09-18 21:46:49
ReversalHatchery
in reply to blackbrook • • •1, 90 or 9 minutes, in any case it needs a speaker to be watched, and often mobile data cap when not at home.
and a fair amount of rewinds for a lot of non-native english ~~speakers~~ knowers
toastal
in reply to pnutzh4x0r • • •☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
in reply to toastal • • •cs.columbia.edu/~rgu/publicati…
toastal
in reply to ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆ • • •toastal
in reply to ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆ • • •Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that you use Coq to prove your theroem, then need to rewrite it in something else. I think there is some OCaml integration, but OCaml—while having create performance for a high level language & fairly predictable output—isn’t well-suited for very low-level kernel code. The difference in the ATS case (with the ML syntax similarity 🤘) is you can a) write it all in a single language & b) you can interweave proof, type, & value-level code thru the language instead of separating them; which means your functions need to make the proof-level asserts inside their bodies to satisfy the compiler if written with these requirements, or the type level asserting the linear type usage with value-level requirements to if allocating memory, must deallocate memory as well as compeletly prevent double free & use after free.
For those in the back: Rust can’t do this with its affine types only preventing using a resource multiple times (at most once), where linear types say you must use once & can only use once.
☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
in reply to toastal • • •Verified Software Toolchain
vst.cs.princeton.edumac
Unknown parent • • •I also dont like videos for this stuff. Summarized using kagi's universal summarizer, sharing here:
Arthur Besse
in reply to pnutzh4x0r • • •This video is full of jarring edits which initially made me wonder if someone had cut out words or phrases to create an abbreviated version. But, then I realized there are way too many of them to have been done manually. I checked the full original video and from the few edits i manually checked it seems like it is just inconsequential pauses etc that were removed: for instance, when Linus says "the other side of that picture" in the original there is an extra "p" sound which is removed here.
Yet another irritating and unnecessary application of neural networks, I guess.
Linus Torvalds: Speaks on the Rust vs C Linux Divide
YouTubesecret300
in reply to pnutzh4x0r • • •