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that was going so well until the mcarthian redscare succumbing to the propaganda scaring away with the broad misapplied term "socialism", getting the solution baby thrown out with the manufactured problem bathwater.
vigilance, the price we must constantly pay, to guard against these psyop flies in the ointment.
seeing this again, i should have just quoted bakunin. ;)
“Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice; socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality”
― Bakunin
idk any other one liner that so immediately dispels the mcarthian conflationary deception, revealing not all socialism is authoritarian; socialism is not inherently authoritarian; you can have freedom and socialism. might even lead some to one day recognise some forms of authoritarianism called socialism are oxymoronic, and inherently not socialism, not living up to the definitive ideals espoused of socialism, at all, and was only called socialism to appeal to people when really it was anti-socialist fascist-hegemony… towit we now have the mcarthian redscare hangover to contend with, having so many people believe the mis-labeling, avoiding the very thing that can save them, and so in their mis-belief, run into the hands of their oppressor as if salvation. painful to watch. #ProblemReactionSolution #Orwellian No need to had our power over to either council nor robber-barons.
@Digit So would you consider your beliefs anarchist? I'm guessing your responses are regarding the line in this meme "Socialism isn't about making everyone "equal"? I tend to believe that the trend toward more socialism in American Government/society does make the lazy dependent on the state but not necessarily "the elites" unless you believe US Government is controlled by a cabal of elitists.
In any case interesting quote by Bakunin. Where I disagree with his quote is that the difference for me is that I don't consider freedom a privilege but God-given right. That said, I understand his viewpoint that the absence of any socialist programs in a society could be viewed as injustice. Healthcare is a good example of this when in the United States - citizens die because s/he does not have insurance to cover the cost of healthcare resulting in treatment to stabilize the result, but not the cause of disease. On the flip side of that statement, history has shown that socialist / communist governments which historically begin in a more authoritarian form of Government, have failed as they move toward more freedom/free market/capitalism due partially to their inability to maintain an economy strong enough to pay for socialism. It sounds good on paper but the greed of mankind make socialism unlikely to be successful while capitalism properly implemented seems better positioned to support a free society.
@FlippedOut: Healthcare is not a right as no one has the right to presume upon another's time and/or effort. You'll note that socialized healthcare fails everywhere it's attempted as well.
Capitalism was the best system possible. It died decades ago and was replaced by cronyism.
False logic, Digit. There is no socialism or communism wherein freedom is a component.
thanks for that assertive contradiction. i got a kick out of apparently being told i'd offered false logic, then followed by the fallacy of asserting the negative like that, as if all knowing of the whole set.
i quite like bruce parry's bits on the penan being egalitarian, if you're curious and interested in exploring (at least intellectually at a distance) more ways of living and challenging your assumptions, that's a nice one to consider a quick search on. the way he puts it sometimes, is that it was the first "truly" egalitarian people he'd met in all his travels with different tribes. for one to consider.
though more importantly, if you only ever drive by looking in the rear view mirror, you need to be taken out of the driver's seat. lol. the arrogant form of naive realism where all you know is presumed all there is, and equating apparent absence of evidence with absolute evidence of absence, is bad enough, but then to attempt close us off from, and steer us away from, new innovations to better, on grounds of them havig not been... that really caps our potential to just some level of hell, afaict.
... goes against some of the promise of capitalism that it's oh so innovative (along with its claims of efficiency, both of which often get demonstrated as false).
I'd love to love anarcho capitalism, but i dont see how that's maintained and prevented from the economic mechanism of wealth consolidation and monopoly, and you end up losing liberty, no longer in a system of anarcho-capitalism, but drifted rather irrevokably to authoritarian forms of capitalism, because money is power, and as it accumulates and consolidates, by it taking money to make money and the more you have the less things cost, further and further, until you have monopoly and a completely broken unworking economic system.
needs tempered with something else. anarcho-something, for sure... no ilegitimate hierarchies please and thankyou, yup... so whilst there's the mechanistic authoritarianwards-drift vacuum of the anarcho economic-rightwing to aspire to preventing via ~*shrug-cringe*~... uhh, competition taking out the top.... contrast to... on the anarcho economic-left, there's the concern to not over-councilize. more a mere philosophical conundrum. not an economic mechanism towards tyranny baked in.
@FlippedOut: Healthcare is not a right as no one has the right to presume upon another’s time and/or effort. You’ll note that socialized healthcare fails everywhere it’s attempted as well.
and while that carries on making the same certain assertive logical fallacies, let me jump ahead in partial agreement with:
Capitalism was the best system possible. It died decades ago and was replaced by cronyism.
yeah, maybe like in the 1950s? that when? or would you have considered that already too much corporatism and cronyism and oligarchy creeping in? [edit: yeah, there's an important point most seem to miss... if you're already in an authoritarian economic-rightwing system, trying to head to the economic-left wing, with no effort to take it from authoritarian to libertarian, you end up traversing far worse forms. FREEDOM FIRST! priorities straight. then we can quibble over the minutia of resource management, like, in general, whether its better to advocate more for sharing kindness or more for protectionist dog-eat-dog isolated striving against hardship as individuals. ... anyway, idk when the golden promised land of capitalism was, but at least back then you could still hope to do well, and even better than your parents... rather than the crap we have now. hozed by cabals of crooks exploiting us all directions, including usury.]
though, again, that's a staggering imbalance of certainty and imagination to assert it the best possible. such levels of certainty, make me check myself, that i've not become hypnotised by some spell of some kind. please don't truncate human potential like that, that we're reduced to cogs in the machine, to mere capita, rather than full sentient feeling beings due right treatment and worth at least aspiring to a better socio-economic paradigm than one of exploitation. new forms of crypto-slavery are still slavery. the emancipatory potentials of so many innovations get suppressed and secreted, to maintain the leverage of the exploiters, despite the potentials of the suppressed technology far exceeding the potential offered by enslaving everybody under manufactured economic duress.
aw heck, i might as well just quote bucky on the matter:
“We should do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living. It is a fact today that one in ten thousand of us can make a technological breakthrough capable of supporting all the rest. The youth of today are absolutely right in recognizing this nonsense of earning a living. We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because, according to Malthusian Darwinian theory he must justify his right to exist. So we have inspectors of inspectors and people making instruments for inspectors to inspect inspectors. The true business of people should be to go back to school and think about whatever it was they were thinking about before somebody came along and told them they had to earn a living.” ~ Buckminster Fuller
oh, right, yeah, verbosity disliked... i'll stop proof-reading before i add more, and will stop before i write another similar amount to other things said in this thread so far. lol
@Digit Because one person can make a break through that can take care of many doesn't mean he will, if he gets no reward for his efforts, he won't bother and that, and the fact that leaders always distribute wealth abundantly to themselves and little to anyone else, is why communism doesn't work.
@Digit Because one person can make a break through that can take care of many doesn't mean he will, if he gets no reward for his efforts, he won't bother and that, and the fact that leaders always distribute wealth abundantly to themselves and little to anyone else, is why communism doesn't work.
@Tek ☠ Never without chaos. Because nature abhors a vacuum, and when a vacuum of power exists, someone steps in to fill it, and generally in an anarchy that person only has their own interests at heart.
Because one person can make a break through that can take care of many doesn’t mean he will,
yep.
if he gets no reward for his efforts,
it's kinda its own reward... and many inventors like the idea of inventing something to benefit humanity etc.... but i get your economic coercive/incentive gist, yeah
he won’t bother
thousand do, many more yet when when all are not made to do unecessary drudgery and busywork ... like bucky said...
and that, and the fact that leaders always distribute wealth abundantly to themselves and little to anyone else, is why communism doesn’t work.
you lost me with that last one. surely, the follow on from that is why having leaders doesnt work.
decentralise, go anarcho... whether you do that in a style more kropotkin or more proudhon, i, more midarchistical nearer bakunin, dgaf. anything in that freedomist neck of the woods would be a shitload better than either nightmares of councilism drift to worsening authoritarianism, or nightmares of capitalism drift to worsening authoritarianism (if that's even possible, in some minds, given, the capita, in capitalism, is people, just reduced to mere ecconomic units... ) ... point being... freedom first.
if the emma goldmans and the ayn rands of the world put their heads together, they could defeat many hitlers, pol pots, and pinnochaets. and if they do it right... they'd not even need to.
yeah, that's a big folly in many systems. some not only nullify your rewards, but nullify your efforts, and some even invert your efforts, and some even invert everybody's rewards.
would be nice if our elections were like an assortment of different systems to implement, and able to expand each and change some sliders and check-boxes around, creating a configuration file of how you'd like things to be, rather than a grunt mark on a paper (or even a mark on a screen of a "trust us"(TM) proprietary voting machine (bol!)), and everybody able to add more questions and configurations to further advance the options and inspiration for how people can have better say... and i'll bet there'd be a lot less "there should be unfairness and suffering" votes. heh.
i'd vote for get return from efforts as well as invest in enabling everybody to get on with investing their efforts with security of knowing they'd not be getting a boot in their face.
yeah, that authoritarian centralised statist end of communism.
at the other end, where anarchism and communism meet, you get anacho-communism... decentralisation and empowerment for everybody n all that stuff... freedom supposedly held in everybody's mutual understanding another's freedom and prosperity is their own freedom and prosperity too. no more need to manufacture scarcities.
at the other end, where anarchism and communism meet, you get anacho-communism… decentralisation and empowerment for everybody n all that stuff… freedom supposedly held in everybody’s mutual understanding another’s freedom and prosperity is their own freedom and prosperity too. no more need to manufacture scarcities.
This is closer to what I mean.
Literally, This
decentralization and empowerment for everybody n all that stuff… freedom supposedly held in everybody’s mutual understanding another’s freedom and prosperity is their own freedom and prosperity too. no more need to manufacture scarcities, if you feel in danger you can respond with out the fear of retaliation from a foreign assist.
idk, i'm not well read up on the various political philosophies yet. i cant teach it well and clear enough i don't think, but, it's just good to know that it's there, that the situation isnt just binary or linear, but is at least planar, and perchance even a third worthwhile important elucidating dimension too. out of not-even-flatland we go with our political systems, and the cartoons first past the post etc causes to grief us with.
seen flatland? it's good. ... or imagining the 10th dimension? good stuff. handy to cross apply to politics n bollocks.
oh yeah.. didnt i have another post here? mentioning somewhere in it "gun control" and satirically admonishing the right to bear if only used for purpose to defend and take back the country from enemies, lol ... maybe my satire was too strong for someone. .. or maybe that was somewhere else... maybe i've got that written out and unsent in another tab in another window. n_n
@Digit Don't know, do know that prior to Friday evening we were having some database issues here, mostly caused by Hubzilla not friendica which was maxing out MariaDB's capability at around 400 TPS on rotary drives. Friday evening / Saturday morning I installed a special flash drive (it is special in that it supports atomic writes, bypassing cache and writing directly to flash memory) which MariaDB can use to eliminate double writes speeding up the database. The MariaDB said this would allow around 1500 TPS but I've seen it peak at over 3200 TPS now so it is no longer a bottleneck. That might have caused some dropped messages.
oh, and, as for the meme's message at the start... gun control... :3
there, i said it. ;D
lol.
been long time satirically waiting in the wind for that right-to-bear to defend and take back... have had the mutual goading of "hows the 2nd workin for ya? taken back n protected yet?" "how's that idealism philosophising workin for ya? got your spaceships for everybody yet?" not a million miles from ; and perhaps only slightly oblique from :
but like i say... oh if only the emma goldmans and ayn rands could get together to work on a freedom-positive combination of their philosophies, we'd have this licked. freedom and security, personal and property rights are preserved freedomwards possible perhaps in the abundance "if" 'only' we had "all Naruto-run together". the "boo"-into-pappy's-arms-we-react is a tiresome squanderance of our potential.
Earlier I saw a post which had a picture of a dog and a pig and asked, "Why would you eat one and not the other", to which I replied, pigs taste good but dogs are too gamey. Really any lean meat not so flavorful. Obviously it was trying to make those of us who are carnivorous or at least omnivorous to feel guilty for eating pigs.
But then I got to thinking more, what allowed humans to evolve such large brains? And the answer to that is the combination of being omnivorous / carnivorous because meat is much easier to digest and extract energy from the plants, that is why cats have a very short digestive tract and cows need three stomachs and a very large digestive tract. And then cooking, cooking meat allowed us to digest it and extract energy from it even easier. And our brains consume more than 1/3rd of the calories we eat. Brains are very energy hungry organs.
And if we ate only vegetables, our brains would be starving for energy and not function well. And for proof of that all you need to do is spend about 30 seconds talking to any vegetarian.
@BR 549 ☎ Definitely would trust it more than the others, made with conventional tech and without the evil Gates involved. I have a hard time wanting to inject myself with something made by someone bent on "depopulation".
I saw one post that had two pictures of him side by side, and one guy had attached earlobes, the other had free earlobes. Genetically, you have one or the other, of course. But then, there is photo shop.
@BR 549 ☎ Please provide references, I'd not heard this particular theory regarding Amazon, thought the CIA dealt primarily in weapons, drugs, and child sex trafficking.
@BR 549 ☎ Ok, Amazon is one of three large cloud providers so I don't see the fact that the CIA has contracts with them as special. There is no doubt the CIA is evil and corrupt and there is no doubt that Amazon is evil and corrupt. And there is no doubt that Amazon will gladly fuck a smaller customer to preserve a larger one. But this is not the same as say Facebook where it is alledged that the CIA provided a large amount of the seed money for it's creation.
@BR 549 ☎ My understanding is that they are in the process of setting them up. I have my own server farm. I had given thought to virtualizing it in cloud services but Amazon has shown my why I can not do that.
well, if you're really going back to basic principles, the remaining indigenous people who live on this continent are the owners of America. we Europeans broke every treaty ever made with them. .
When I was around five or six years old, I visited a cousin and he had a low powered AM radio transmitter that would allow him to broadcast to radios nearby. I was fascinated.
A few years later, around 4th grade, I took a real interest in electronics and proceeded to read everything I could get my hands on related.
In 5th grade, I took a 5-tube all American table radio and converted it into a transmitter. It was crude but generated a few hundred milliwatts and could be heard for half a block or so away.
Through Jr. high and high school I ran a bootleg radio station, for most of that time around 100 watts and much of it 24 hours / day filling the wee morning hours with pre-taped programming. Occasionally, I ran a much larger transmitter that put out about 1000 watts but not for more than a few hours at a time.
I felt then and still feel today the monopoly the broadcast industry had on the airwaves was unfair and a blatant violation of the 1st amendment.
In 1981, now four years out of high school, several of my friends got busted by the FCC, and by this time I had my first class radio telephone license and was doing some work in commercial broadcast as well as working for Pacific Northwest Bell / US West, the regional telco, and decided it was not wise to continue so myself and friends decided perhaps since it was no longer safe for us to participate in pirate broadcasting that instead we would write about it and enable others in this pursuit of freedom.
At first we typed up articles on a manual type writer, literally cut and pasted them and then photo-copied them at a 7-11.
It occurred to me that a computer, word processor, and printer would be a more productive way to put a news letter together, so I bought a trash-80 model III with 48kbytes of RAM, two 180k floppies, and an Rs-232 port and a shitty dot matrix printer.
My friends wanted remote access so I obtained a modem and as there were no built in device drivers for the Rs-232 port, I wrote a primitive host program that enabled the screen and keyboard to be accessed via modem at a whopping 300 bps.
In 1981 there were a handful of home microcomputers you could buy, The Trs-80 model III was one of them, also Commodore Pet, Apple I, and a few others. There were enough of them out there and enough board teenagers that war dialing became a common thing and people discovering my word processor sitting on a modem became problematic with them fucking around with our word processing files.
So I wrote a primitive BBS front end that had e-mail, file transfer, some online games, and with the right login and password a drop into the command prompt so legitimate people could get to the word processing files.
Then a fellow I worked with who had a surplus electronics business on the side had some floppy drives that "didn't work", but he only wanted $20 each for them so I bought two and hooked them up and with tracksess found they in fact worked just fine but they were 80tk and double sided which is why he hadn't been able to get them to work. Tandy's operating system, TRS-DOS didn't know double sided or 80tk drives, but NewDOS the OS I was using at the time, did.
So then bought two more, these actually did have defects, one had a bad preamp chip that I replaced, cost me a whole of $4 or so for a replacement chip and the other a bad head select diode. So then equipped with four good drives that could hold 720k each I had almost 3MB which in 1981 was an enormous amount of space for a home computer.
I turned my basic host program into a full featured programming language geared towards writing BBS's which resembled BASIC in syntax but with a different set of keywords geared towards BBS programming. It ran about 40% faster than Microsoft BASIC even though it had more functionality and didn't have some of MS-Basic's bugs like val("%something) causing a crash. I also wrote a secondary tasks that was serviced by timer interrupts that ran into the background that basically maintained a sanity check and rebooted if something was amiss. It was probably the earliest example of multi-tasking on a Z-80.
I added more functionality to the BBS, an e-mail system, about 100 online games that had save files customized to the user so each user could play a game independent of others.
When Hayes came out with a 1200 baud modem, I upgraded. By 1985 it was so popular that a single line was taking around 300 calls / day. It had also merged with Minibin at this time, taking on Minibin's room oriented message system with the message formatting re-written as part of ComBASIC for speed (all assembly much faster than BASIC). Because Minibin, written by Glenn Gorman, was originally written to use a Microperipherals Bus Decoding modem which was not ported the same as a standard RS-232, and he wanted to sell it commercially but couldn't because the Microperipherals host program was copyrighted, we agreed to adapt each others software to work together and sell it commercially.
By 1985 it was so popular that I decided to go multi-line and so bought a Trs-80 model 16B with Microsoft Xenix as a platform that natively supported multi-tasking. I modified the 16B into the equivalent of a model 6000 and then beyond a 6000 by modifying the CPU board, adding an additional offset and limit register and a patch to the Xenix kernel that a friend back east had worked out. This allowed the CPU board to access up to 7MB of RAM instead of the 1MB it was designed to access.
Then I modified the memory cards from 256k to 1MB by removing the 4116's and adding 4164's and removing the +12V line not required by the 4164's and running an extra address line with blue wire. It wasn't pretty but it worked and allowed me to stuff 4MB into the machine and three serial cards for a total of 11 lines.
In order to cover the cost of lines I started to charge for access. I also bought a couple of 70MB drives, the largest you could get in the interface format supported by the Tandy, so I had a total of 140MB to work with. Added Usenet News and a Telebit modem to support the news feed.
By 1991 the 11 lines were not sufficient for the usage so I bought a Used Sun 3/160 with 16MB of RAM and two Super Eagle 575MB drives. It came with one 16 line MUX, I ordered two more for a total of 48 lines. This soon was not enough. So I bought Annex-3 comm servers and had a total of 256 lines by 1995. By this time I had also added two Sun 4/670MP's with Ross RTK-625 CPUs (125 Mhz Quad Sparc) and a Sun 4/330MP which the telco parted with when they upgraded. The 4/330 became dedicated to processing Usenet News, the 4/670MP one was the mail server, the other shell server.
In 1992 when the Stockton CIX was formed I ordered T1s from Sprint and got on the Internet within about two weeks. Since I already had a local LAN the conversion to Internet was easy, just switch mail to directly talk across the Internet instead of using the Usenet smart routing that it previously was. Back then almost everything was text, text based games were super popular.
Over the years we migrated to Linux, initially on 386 hardware, today mostly overclocked i7 chips. We offer commercial e-mail, web hosting, virtual private servers, and Linux shell access including full remote desktop access to a number of Linux distributions.
Because I have always been an advocate of free speech, in Broadcast or on the Internet where I actually have some opportunity to do something about it, I recently put up a friendica node, this is a node on a federated network known as the fediverse, or the hubzilla network, and there are almost 10,000 nodes and 4 million users. My node talks to other nodes directly so no node can censor traffic for the entire network. As policy I do not censor as long as the material is legal, i.e., no kiddie porn and the like.
I'd like firstly to invite everyone, friendica.eskimo.com/, as a place to freely express your opinions without any threat of being "deplatformed", I am anti-cancel culture here.
Over all these years I've developed a very good hosting platform, Wordpress and other CMS systems are served faster on my platform than any of the big name hosters and I've also modified Apache so that every customers content gets served under their UID so if one customers code is bad it does not compromise other customers.
If you need a stable e-mail address, I've had eskimo.com domain since BEFORE the Internet was (previously routed via UUCP Usenet smart routing network) we can help you. If you need fast secure hosting, we've got the best, and if you would like access to variety of Linux shell servers complete with full graphical desktop we can help you. Check us out at eskimo.com/.
Lastly, in the past I have advertised with Google and Facebook and I've placed advertisement from Google on my site to generate some advertisement revenue but given that Google's changed their position from "Do No Evil" to "Do Only Evil" and Facebook has tossed me off four times now, I no longer wish to give either a single cent of my advertisement revenue, and I am looking for conservative friendly ad networks, so if you can recommend same please let me know.
On my mobile right now. For ads. I've swapped from Google adaware to what is the ad on the left banner on www.White2000.com I don't make much! But I don't care anyway. Anyway try them for ads.
Because this is business income and because bitcoin is difficult to account for with the IRS owing to it's rapidly fluctuating value, I need to avoid that, and as for Wimkin, they have the same issue as google: independent.co.uk/life-style/g…
@BR 549 ☎ JavaScript is so integral to the web these days that not enabling it is going to break a large percentage of content, but in this case the page does not load even with JS enabled.
Wonderful fucking libtards in Washington raising gasoline tax $1/gallon, it was already the 2nd highest in the nation, now it should surpass even Californicatia. Fucking Assholes!
people tell me 'Aghh tides are rising panic!', well (ipcc map, since removed, 20 year prediction, sea levels will rise 16 feet, which means, where i am, i'm now 16 feet under water, that 20 year prediction ended about 3 years ago. and now of course it's Another 20 years (or is it now 10?) Again. the global cooling was in the 70's, they tell me, Narr thats made up 'intrenet stuff lies' i say, no it wasn't cos i was there and we were all going to freeze to death.
all the crying wolf induces a fatal slumber. we really should just get on liberating the emancipation technology and get spaceships for everybody. crazy that over 3000 times free energy devices have been secreted by the patent office.
I’ve compiled and placed online the latest mainstream Linux kernels 5.11rc4 and 5.10.9. The 5.11rc4 is only available in client form since it is still a release candidate it is not really suitable for server use yet. When the official release comes out I will place a server version.
There are three files for each kernel, download them all and install with: dpkg -i *.deb These will work on any debian based distribution such as Debian, Ubuntu, Mint, MxLinux, Zorin, Julinux, etc.
These are all compiled as fully tickless kernels. This is advantageous in situations where not wasting CPU cycles servicing clock interrupts where there is no work to be done is advantages, such as laptops where battery life is a concern or hosts with many virtual machines where each virtual machine wasting CPU totally can end up wasting more than real applications.
The “client” kernels are fully pre-emptive with a 1000Hz clock rate to minimize latency and are the best choice for multi-media, gaming, home desktops and workstations. The “server” kernel is non-pre-emptive with a 100Hz clock to maximize throughput at the expense of latency.
These kernels are all capable of running on bare metal or virtualized environments. They are all capable of hosting KVM/Qemu virtual machines provided you have the proper vt-t/vt-d instructions in your CPU.
@BR 549 ☎ they just waste less CPU than ordinary kernels, this is important on battery operated devices and on servers with many virtual hosts. And there is no real penalty for doing so.
@BR 549 ☎ The point of the tickless kernels is that applications don't need the time and date UNLESS there is work to be done. Since no work means they're not going to read the clock so only wake up and update it during those times.
@Robin Well I do find it interesting that they put the fence around the Capital building with the razor wire on the inside and the links on the out. In other words it is oriented to keep people in and not out. And then you have all the military check points around DC, they are checking people leaving not coming.
@Robin no it doesn't. If a national emergency is declared Marshall law can be instituted and the inauguration put off indefinitely. If the inauguration is allowed to go forward, it still can be overturned if fraud is proven, which I believe it will be.
@Robin what makes it legally an attack on the United States is foreign countries involvement, and so far the government of Italy has admitted involvement, a military raid in Germany has proven involvement there, and Spain, UK, and China have all been implicated.
Problem is the missing serious sources for that. As long as no serious sources can be named and no official court judges these claims to be true I regard this as bullshit.
After Joe Biden won the 2020 election, President Donald Trump refused to concede. Navarro published widely discredited conspiracy theories regarding claims of election fraud. The document listed various allegations that had been dismissed by the courts. ... In the report, Navarro proudly cited biased and unreliable sources of information, such as One America News Network, Newsmax, War Room Pandemic, Just the News, and the National Pulse, because they provided "alternative coverage". Source: Wikipedia about Mr. Navarro
the source of the graphic is in that link, you asked where the source was, well that was the source. Naturally you don't have to agree with it, but feel free to check it.
eck! there is cctv recording of it in progress, there have been election fraud arrests, 100's of affidavits, the analysis of the voting patterns by the data/software guys, it's just endless, there have even been compilation videos of the fraud and websites categorizing them, like this one.
Ok, so now that is state of things: There have been numerous allegations of vote fraud, none of these proved, no voting was cancelled by court. The vote is valid. Mr. Biden is presicent elect. Mr. Trump will be president till January 20th, 2021 12:00 ET.
After that date Mr. Biden will be president and I really hope that Mr. Trump then will be brought to court because. There are several court cases coming up against him, civil actions, criminal proceedings, on state level and on federal level.
Even if Mr. Trump manages to be pardoned by whomsoever, this only can be for the federal level. Thus I hope, chances are qute good for him to go to jail. That is where he belongs.
I know a lot of people who really would be delighted to see this.
The only thing that went wrong for the Democrats and RINOs is that a humongous group did not fall for the bait and start a riot. They had to hold their own pathetic riot, and shoot people, throw them off the stairs.
oh i so wanna reshare that... but it still uses the psyop phrase "conspiracy theorist", even though it's dispelling the blatant deceptions. tis a mere fleck of blue in that red pill... maybe it's just a homeopathic dose. n_n ok, it's worthy. ;D
Conspiracy theorists, foil tin hat, are some of the adjectives people dedicate to those whistle blowers posting different information to the one given to the public through the MSM daily.
I understood it as sarcasm and they calling the “sheeple” the real conspiracy theorists, don’t you agree?
I'm just wary and concerned for those to whom this will not be apparent, and it'll affirm that phrase as valid, unquestioned. Even if they don't get that ["conspiracy theorists" is a psyop term that abuses them, dissuading due questioning authority], then maybe they'll at least get shaken out of their cognitive dissonance as they see past their prior unquestioned beliefs that government cares, media never misleads/lies, and that for profit pharma's healing them. and realising that, is why i re-shared, after weighing it up.
but can we agree that something like flat earth theory or chemtrails ARE conspiracy theories?
funny guy. 😛 no, the term conspiracy theory is still a psyop term designed and deployed to dissuade questioning/investigating authorities and crooks.
Is it still "a "conspiracy"" when there are publicly traded companies offering services for, and conferences promoting deployment of, various forms of the idea? let alone theory.
I remember seeing evergreen avionics way back... i forget when now... 2004? and I thought "What gall! The people will see this and rise up.". What a fool.
and flat earth's a good thought experiment to see how far you can keep coming up with new contrivances to explain how it could be flat despite appearances to the contrary, or to shift your reference plane (like playing flatland, and trying imagine the 4th dimension and up, to imagining the 10th dimension), or simply to challenge someone to experiment to give evidence to back up their claim it's round/spherical/globe, rather than just presuming and proclaiming (like many flat earthers do ~ lol, oh the irony so many miss). it's not all just fools to be dismissed to help you feel superior; to help prevent you entertaining other perspectives. ... like the term "conspiracy theorist" does.
Okay I got it, the wording is posisonous and misleading.
I don't share that view. I don't think the phrase is pejorative. It's neutrally saying, there's a theory that there is a conspiracy.
I mean, jesus, who would have thought that GCHQ is tapping subsea cables to spy on the whole atlantean internet traffic? No conspiracy theory probably would have gone that far, but yet it's entirely true.
I like it. It needs some intellectual effort to understand it, but I see that as a quality rather than a fault.
The main issue I see is that the term “conspiracy” doesn’t really fit with the things mentioned (government cares, media don’t lie, pharma wants to cure) – at least not at first sight, because where is the secrecy that belongs to a conspiracy?
Rather take the official story about 9/11 as an example (and it has indeed been called a conspiracy theory). Bin Laden and Al Qaida would be the conspirers, acting secretly to destroy the Western way of life. A person who believes in the government, the mainstream media and Big Pharma will also believe the official 9/11 story.
It’s neutrally saying, there’s a theory that there is a conspiracy.
Bold claim. An assertion thrown out fallaciously. I strain to conceive of a use of it that is not a fallacious misdirect.
Epistemologists must utterly baulk at seeing it so rife.
I mean, jesus, who would have thought that GCHQ is tapping subsea cables to spy on the whole atlantean internet traffic? No conspiracy theory probably would have gone that far, but yet it’s entirely true.
and how casually and normalised you deploy the term. And yet, people were pointing out this was going on for decades before Snowden. ... people who would have had the label "conspiracy theorist" thrown at them by the spook agencies to discredit them and such claims, to discourage others rightly investigating the authorities to hold them to account.
because where is the secrecy that belongs to a conspiracy?
Yep. So many seem so deep into the induction that even the very word "conspiracy" (without being suffixed with theory) is now a synonym for falsehood to them. As if no one would ever conspire. As if the idea is laughable and readily dismissed without investigation. Of course no one would ever conspire, especially not when there's massive gains for them to be had. And then all manner of atrocities get to proceed, unchallenged, even unhidden, in plain sight, for those who would even bother to look, and yet so few do look, because who wants to appear like a "conspiracy theorist"?... regardless of the fact that they were not coming up with any theories, and that the plans are not only laid bare, but promoted. If you so deploy that little due diligence and follow a little casual research, as aught be respected as the duty of everybody in a democracy, then there's a whole lot of horror to face up to in the revelations.
so you think Al quaeda doesn’t exist and Bin Laden is a retard and everything was done by Falcons so they can sell more weapons and invade Iraq again?
Quite the spurious leap and characterisation. A rhetorical style befitting of shilling for the man. Heh.
"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."
"Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories concerning the attacks of September the 11th"
"A lone gunman."
lol.
Do tell, how does one fit a 757 in a pentagon shaped hole?
n_n
y'know?
(and in context: scrapsfromtheloft.com/2017/08/… / (Revelations, so relevant today, in so many ways, tragically prophetic in our ignorance and capitulation, right down to the "pretty soon we'll all be locked in our homes")).
"back and to the left, back and to the left, back and to the left... "
"...And that's why Kennedy's head~ blew~ off~~ What time's gladiators on? Are we missing it? whoo-wee, I'm so glad we're free."
It's like when someone identifies as a skeptic, they really affirm they're not. Quite similarly as when someone proclaims they have the most humility. ;)
A yes or no would not do to such a troll question.
I answered sufficient.
... and if you're asking again, it seems you didn't quite grok the meaning of:
Do tell, how does one fit a 757 in a pentagon shaped hole?
nor the rest, it would seem.
Osama Bin Laden's an interesting character, with an interesting history, an interesting tool/agent, that reveals much, if you spend some time investigating.
But further, (less ambiguously / less nebulously), if the "how to fit a 757 in a pentagon shaped hole" isnt enough, consider "pull it", building 7 (proclaimed fallen on the news when in sight over the shoulder of the reporter, text-book controlled demolition, and why (and how not)), the missing gold, the timing of execs being away, the "construction" work done in the preceding days, the fighter jets that had scrambled, told to head back... for just a few other easy pieces to broaden the picture beyond the misdirect binary did-he/didn't-he.
Lots to look into, to do your own research and thinking.
No need to rhetorically faux-interrogate others for what they think, let alone when they've already laid out sufficient spread for you. n_n
But this definition of "conspiracy theory" exists, namely that it is a theory that there is a certain conspiracy behind something, no matter whether it's true or not (or partly true, as tmo. are many if not most conspiracy theories).
I got it from a book by Matthias Bröckers, who treats conspiracy theories more like hypotheses than dismissing them outright. (Matthias Bröckers: Verschwörungen, Verschwörungstheorien und die Geheimnisse des 11.9.)
Yep. So many seem so deep into the induction that even the very word “conspiracy” (without being suffixed with theory) is now a synonym for falsehood to them. [...]
I'm with you there, Digit. Nevertheless one can reclaim and redefine terms. Take the insults hurled at you, and own them! So I would say that I'm a conspiracy theorist in my own understanding.
when bush jr said “Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories concerning the attacks of September the 11th”, i bet he made his cia daddy proud.
@Digit Oh, if somebody calls me such a name, I'll just say yes, I am.
And moreover, still I have the right to tell Mr Bush jr. dubbleyou that what he advertises is a pure conspiracy theory. Bin Laden and the 40 Hijackers.
Not that I don't believe it was fundamentalists who did it, but who used them, and for what? Bin Laden, or a similar figure might have been acting as go-between, like he did in Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, as far as I know, originally was the name of the list of mudjahideen that Bin Laden recruited for fighting against the Soviet Union.
They build a world of great confusion to force on us the devil's illusion
I dont for a femto second think bush jr really thinks that. it's an outright deception, put out there to misdirect others. so can't reliably call it a theory of his. and so, also... again:
funny guy. 😛 no, the term conspiracy theory is still a psyop term designed and deployed to dissuade questioning/investigating authorities and crooks.
;D lol. (even though, that is a better use of it, same as in the original post's image).
but then... we can pick and choose which definition of theory we go with... so maybe we can still legitimately use that psyop phrase, and keep discouraging anyone from questioning the nefarious dominator kleptocrat/oligarch plans.
keep discouraging anyone from questioning the nefarious dominator kleptocrat/oligarch plans.
Why would you want to do that?
As I said, I got the idea from Matthias Bröckers. His book about conspiracy theories that ttakes 9/11 as the main example is in German, though, otherwise I would have recommended it.
And if Bush doesn't think it's a lie he perfectly fits into the majority of so called "conspiracy theorists" who also believe what they are saying.
But this is indeed an interesting aspect: that someone deliberately sets complex lies into the world, so the truth is no longer easily to be seen. Some people will believe these lies and spread them. This could be the case not only concerning the official 9/11 story, but also other misleading explanations, ranging from #chemtrails to #reptilian shape shifters.
Maybe we could coin a new term: "conspiracy hypothesis", or even something without the word "conspiracy", as long as it is fit to describe the phenomenon.
I dont for a femto second think bush jr really thinks that. it’s an outright deception,
I didn’t see the full stop, and misread: “I dont for a femto second think bush jr really thinks that it’s an outright deception” -- but I see politicians as puppets rather than as real leaders, so it doesn't really make a difference.
@Blutpumpe @Digit @Eileen Yes that is why I asked if hospitals were a slang term for government. There are a lot of psychopaths in government and they are treated nicely.
What I tried to explain above, but apparently not in clear enough words: I think, the psy-op goes further than what Digit is saying.
It is clear that not all which is called "conspiracy theory" is the truth. There's really some weird fantasy stuff out there.
To my opinion, the psy-op counts on the existence of all the nonsense and half-sense that is -- deliberately or unknowingly -- being spread through the media. so when something true appears, people will not recognise it, but point their finger and say: "another conspiracy theory!"
So the term, as iit is generally used, works like a smoke grenade which covers both truth and lies. The more lies and half-truths are being spread (and even debunked), the better it works.
And it's somehow hard explaining all of it, and not using the word "conspiracy theory".
with reason. that, on some level, you're well aware. you keep using the psyop term as if to validate it.
it's entertaining and encouraging to see you wrestle your way free of it. 😀 i'm just holding the space.
and don’t read/understand
n_n nah.
or deliberately don’t react on what I’m saying.
or, am satirically responding to precisely what you're saying, because of the same invalid thing said, that you're not fully accepting as invalid yet, despite professing to.
I’ll end the discussion here.
always amusing and damning to see that. lol. fresh slab of arrogance and ignorance, offered as if some virtue. XD
An ironic term, rather... But on the other hand, "hospital" stands for "hospital". Not all patients in hospitals are sick. My whole sentence was meant to be ironic. Psychopaths have been in charge many times in history.
Ok, I'll take anoher try. Maybe you don't do it deliberately.
To clear some possible misunderstanding first: I'm not denying that it's originally a psy-op term, hope you got that.
If I analyse what I wrote, I had two points I wanted to express:
1) Perhaps you're right, and the word causes confusion, so it would be better not to use it at all. It has caused some confusion between us, I would say. Though I have a positive memory of how #Bröckers' uses it in his book, where I got it from. And as hard as I look, I don't find any synonym that covers all the meanings of it.
Languages are not fixed. Words may mean different things to different people, and can change their connotation and even meaning over time. It must be possible to strip the term from its negative connotation, as Bröckers did, though probably not in all situations.
2) The term, as I see it generally used, doesn't only cover true stories that governments, big business, and whoever want to suppress. No, it stands for all kinds of complex hypotheses, truths, phantasies, ranging from serious background information about deep politics to weird theories that assume that we are all ruled by reptilian shape shifting beings from outer space. And of course, most times it is used in a pejorative way. I think this wide range of meaning is, even if only by chancce and not by plan, part of the psy-op, thus letting true statements about politics and econmy appear beside half-truths and impossible fantasies. This is what I tried to express in these two paragraphs I wrote above (here only putting the first and last words):
To my opinion, ... the better it works.
I'm still missing your intelligent answer on this. Perhaps I didn't formulate it in an easily understandable way. If so, please tell me.
And as hard as I look, I don’t find any synonym that covers all the meanings of it.
funny guy. 😛 no, the term conspiracy theory is still a psyop term designed and deployed to dissuade questioning/investigating authorities and crooks. ... and replacing it with words to the same effect is no remedy. the divisive barb must be extracted from deeper in your mind than the surface layer of interchangeable words.
;D
I think this wide range of meaning is, even if only by chancce and not by plan, part of the psy-op,
spares me pointing that out. 😀 gets many babies thrown out with bathwater, ~ and bathwater that was intentionally dirtied specifically to have the baby thrown out with it.
To my opinion, … the better it works.
I’m still missing your intelligent answer on this. Perhaps I didn’t formulate it in an easily understandable way. If so, please tell me.
*salutes* Yes Sir! Here's my answer on this. ;) i dont think you need seek validation from others/me in-general/on-this. ;) but ok, to elaboratively/additively confirm seeing similarly, yes, the more agent provocateurs, the worse the impact... perhaps... maybe up to a point, then incredulity starts seeping in from the cracks under the pressure. there be many strategies deployed... many reasons, many effects. seeking the cartoon simplicities is itself indicative of having succumbed to manipulative mind maps imposed. no one has the answer. yet the truth is out there. ;)
spares me pointing that out. [...] bathwater that was intentionally dirtied specifically to have the baby thrown out with it.
So at least you got my second point now.
i dont think you need seek validation from others/me in-general/on-this
I don't need validation from anyone. I just had some things I thought were fit to share in this thread. Had you said nothing, I would have been silent. Calling someone a "funny guy", and repeating the same sentence over and over again as if the other one hadn't read and understood it the first time, while on the other hand ignoring valid things they have to say is bad behaviour, to say the least.
satirical tool
That's why I try to keep serious when the tone of the other person is serious. See above how I failed with my irony. And why do you apologise when at the same time you tell me you want to go on with it?
yet the truth is out there
The truth is everywhere. I find it easier to grasp in my neighbourhood. The truth is, for example, that we have different opinions on whether it's legitimate to use the term "conspiracy theory" or not, but, as it turned out, share the same view on the character of the psy-op it's part of.
I have my own thoughts about the world "out there". If it comes to politics I know that it's unlikely to get any proof for anything. In fact, the only things I can be sure of are the ones I experience myself. All else is more or less unsure, and, yes, one could use that psy-op term for it.
I don’t need validation from anyone. I just had some things I thought were fit to share in this thread.
yeah, that coulda been a dick-headed thing to say on my part. i took a gamble.
Calling someone a “funny guy”, and repeating the same sentence over and over again as if the other one hadn’t read and understood it the first time, while on the other hand ignoring valid things they have to say is bad behaviour, to say the least.
yeah, but, you get why, right?
because you kept walking into the trap... saying the thing that had already been established as the psyop phrase, re-perpetrating. ... even when acknowledging it is... which was amusing and perfect setup for the recurrent joke. juicy irony and satire, if you like the comedies. 😁
satirical tool
you're a satirical tool. ;] [jk, thought maybe cruder humour might please some. lol] ;]
That’s why I try to keep serious when the tone of the other person is serious.
& deadpanners may indeed chase each other's tails around and around.
the most serious topics censored are often found spoken of in comedy. cui bono censor.
See above how I failed with my irony.
well if it was all intentional, then well played, setting up the joke setups for the recurring jokes is laying the comedy on thick. (stewart lee and richard herring would be proud). though some of the questions, and the progression, suggests to me it was legit unwitting re-perpetration of psyop (or witting, but, benefit of the doubt's always(?) worth hanging on to, if only for some deadpan ~ bold and brave, in faith of wit and wisdom of the audience/spectator/reader, lest falling into poe's law). them insidious memetics hide insidiously and spread insidiously. in them psyops. whether recognised as intentionally created or not yet, or the not at all.
And why do you apologise when at the same time you tell me you want to go on with it?
to save you and anyone else from the psyop, to retain the curiosity and the duty to investigate what's going on in the world, to disuade a paradigm of shutting yourself down obediently, to not make trained automatons of you, but conscious astute aware beings retaining faculties of clear thought, not duped into becoming unwitting destroyers and poisoners of your siblings, to help you see those who would attempt to poison and destroy you and your siblings by having you poison and destroy each other while thinking you're saving them.
"villains who twirl their mustaches are easy to spot. Those who clothe themselves in good deeds are well camouflaged."
"nobody involved in anything nefarious thinks of themselves as nefarious".
not to deny you the right to use that term, but to allow you your own decision with all infinite potential retained, ... "a fully informed public" as some more familiar language ascribed to aspire to the same i'm trying to word carefully [trying avoid orwellianized language, in english, is not easy, especially since the further accelerations of perversions by the perverted for imbalanced misconceptions of gains]. tis a minefield. or mindfield. so thanks for playing out here, for living, engaging. good to have a good think. 😀
The truth is everywhere. I find it easier to grasp in my neighbourhood. The truth is, for example, that we have different opinions on whether it’s legitimate to use the term “conspiracy theory” or not, but, as it turned out, share the same view on the character of the psy-op it’s part of.
I have my own thoughts about the world “out there”. If it comes to politics I know that it’s unlikely to get any proof for anything. In fact, the only things I can be sure of are the ones I experience myself. All else is more or less unsure, and, yes, one could use that psy-op term for it.
If we know the truth, theories become facts.
that started well, but then after reading "the truth is", everything else just became noise. .... like the high pitch squeel some shops and places play to scare away young people who can still hear those frequencies, "the truth is" is a triple wammy of alarm bells there... big mountain of incredulity to get past, seeing that big mountain of certainty... "the" just the one, the singular "truth", the thing to seek, and to run away from those who have claimed to have found it, "is", sure certain. n_n
and wow yeah...
“conspiracy theory” or not, but, as it turned out, share the same view on the character of the psy-op it’s part of.
so, you're gonna keep using it... despite knowing to use it is to perpetrate the psyop on others... ?
or is this a part of the shared same view on the character of the psyop its part of that has not really sunk in for you yet, past the cognitive dissonance?
it's kinda like me with plastic packaging... i see myself putting more of it in the plastic bins, as if i know not to where, but i do know well enough at least, that it's going to the environment in which we're all in and depend upon. but i keep doing it. a way of not injuring myself on the stress of the horror facing me/us from all around. it's mal-adaptive. such things we need be aware of, if we are to find tractionable remedy. remedy, to all this re-perpetration, this bully's victim becomes bully, this dog-eat-dog race-to-the-bottom, chicken-and-egg-problem, victim co-perpetration regeneration. the more we face it, the more we can find the easy path of taking a comfort fast, to see what's out there, what horrors are in reach of mends, simply if one transcends.
(and since that ends on a lyrical rhyming quality, you know it's much more true... ... noh, the silly folly of our not-perfect logical grok of reality sensibilities and psychologies, manipulable bio-chemical physiological lenses. beneficial to have some several layers and angles of meta-awareness. see more traps, avoid more traps. & trigger traps to trap the trapper to untrap the forest.)
and since we keep yackin about truth... and i've started quoting things... here's another fave quote, relevant here...
"There's no shame in the truth."
(((which is also nice when you hear it garbled on repeat or as a morphing mantra, and it becomes "there's gno-shaman, the truth", or even "there snow shaman, the truth". hehe.)))
Probably to show how strong your opinion is that the term is part of the psy-op and nothing else and cannot be used differently. I do respect that, though I don't share your view.
Why you ignored what else I had to say, I don't know. Perhaps telling me about the word was too important for you, so the other stuff I had to say somehow vanished into the shades. But on the other hand I know I'm not easy at formulating my thoughts, so that might have played a part, too. That's why I tried to get an order into what I had said.
satirical tool / serious
I'm an artist and no politician... which might be my main fault.
Being serious when the other one is is a sign of mutual respect, which we need in these times. Humour is often not understood (my experience).
irony
Not all was meant to be ironic. I was referring to the "hospital" part only. So you can spare your praises for another occasion.
trained automatons
I cannot hold back the fact that it was you who to me seemed somehow like a "trained automaton", repeating that one sentence like a mantra again and again.
Being cautious with one's language. Well I try to be. If one aims to use a term like "conspiracy theory" and not to fall into the psy-op trap, one will have to define it well to strip the negative connotations. I think, Bröckers has done so in his book. Peter Dale Scott, I believe, is another person who used it, though I'm not sure. He definitely uses the term "conspiracy" in the title of one of his books (The War Conspiracy).
noise
I'm probably not a good writer concerning politics, though I see myself as quite a critical reader. I'm more of a poet. I wanted to express that I'm not so much into what's happening far away, things I have no proof for.
To stay with the topic: We can see the outcome of those politics in everyday life. I'm asking myself if it is really necessary to deal with the other stuff, or if it is not enough to know that we know nothing.
"The Truth" not with capital letters. If I know what I say is true, it will stop being a theory, but simply become a fact (a conspiracy fact, if you want), even if only for me, the one who has the proof.
so, you’re gonna keep using it… despite knowing to use it is to perpetrate the psyop on others… ?
See above. I don't think it will in all cases "perpetrate the psyop on others", but it depends on how you use it. This is the point where our opinions are not the same. Language is flexible. Take the terms of the enemy and use them successfully to positive ends. We won't get them out of the world anyway. Throw them back at the ones who coined them, and you'll have won the battle, saying: "Yes it is us who are spreading conspiracy theories, but also you! Now whose theories make more sense?"
that movie was made in 1973. today, they wouldn't print anything without getting permission from the Nomenklatura. Redford's character would disappear, never to be found.
Weird. I think that CNN is rather US centred, much more than for example Al Jazeera. But still they rather informative and definitevely not spreading 100% fake news or conspiracy theories.
Digit
in reply to Nanook • • •that was going so well until the mcarthian redscare succumbing to the propaganda scaring away with the broad misapplied term "socialism", getting the solution baby thrown out with the manufactured problem bathwater.
vigilance, the price we must constantly pay, to guard against these psyop flies in the ointment.
Theaitetos (Рцяэыоод)
in reply to Nanook • • •Vee McMillen
in reply to Nanook • • •Nanook
in reply to Vee McMillen • •Digit
in reply to Nanook • • •seeing this again, i should have just quoted bakunin. ;)
idk any other one liner that so immediately dispels the mcarthian conflationary deception, revealing not all socialism is authoritarian; socialism is not inherently authoritarian; you can have freedom and socialism.
might even lead some to one day recognise some forms of authoritarianism called socialism are oxymoronic, and inherently not socialism, not living up to the definitive ideals espoused of socialism, at all, and was only called socialism to appeal to people when really it was anti-socialist fascist-hegemony… towit we now have the mcarthian redscare hangover to contend with, having so many people believe the mis-labeling, avoiding the very thing that can save them, and so in their mis-belief, run into the hands of their oppressor as if salvation. painful to watch. #ProblemReactionSolution #Orwellian
No need to had our power over to either council nor robber-barons.
Nanook
in reply to Digit • •Draugr
in reply to Nanook • • •rotto Pureblood
in reply to Nanook • • •Nanook likes this.
Nanook
in reply to rotto Pureblood • •FlippedOut
in reply to Nanook • • •@Digit So would you consider your beliefs anarchist? I'm guessing your responses are regarding the line in this meme "Socialism isn't about making everyone "equal"? I tend to believe that the trend toward more socialism in American Government/society does make the lazy dependent on the state but not necessarily "the elites" unless you believe US Government is controlled by a cabal of elitists.
In any case interesting quote by Bakunin. Where I disagree with his quote is that the difference for me is that I don't consider freedom a privilege but God-given right. That said, I understand his viewpoint that the absence of any socialist programs in a society could be viewed as injustice. Healthcare is a good example of this when in the United States - citizens die because s/he does not have insurance to cover the cost of healthcare resulting in treatment to stabilize the result, but not the cause of disease. On the flip side of that statement, history has shown that socialist / communist governments which historically begin in a more authoritarian form of Government, have failed as they move toward more freedom/free market/capitalism due partially to their inability to maintain an economy strong enough to pay for socialism. It sounds good on paper but the greed of mankind make socialism unlikely to be successful while capitalism properly implemented seems better positioned to support a free society.
Draugr
in reply to Nanook • • •@FlippedOut: Healthcare is not a right as no one has the right to presume upon another's time and/or effort. You'll note that socialized healthcare fails everywhere it's attempted as well.
Capitalism was the best system possible. It died decades ago and was replaced by cronyism.
Nanook
in reply to Draugr • •Digit
in reply to Nanook • • •thanks for that assertive contradiction. i got a kick out of apparently being told i'd offered false logic, then followed by the fallacy of asserting the negative like that, as if all knowing of the whole set.
i quite like bruce parry's bits on the penan being egalitarian, if you're curious and interested in exploring (at least intellectually at a distance) more ways of living and challenging your assumptions, that's a nice one to consider a quick search on. the way he puts it sometimes, is that it was the first "truly" egalitarian people he'd met in all his travels with different tribes. for one to consider.
though more importantly, if you only ever drive by looking in the rear view mirror, you need to be taken out of the driver's seat. lol. the arrogant form of naive realism where all you know is presumed all there is, and equating apparent absence of evidence with absolute evidence of absence, is bad enough, but then to attempt close us off from, and steer us away from, new innovations to better, on grounds of them havig not been... that really caps our potential to just some level of hell, afaict.
... goes against some of the promise of capitalism that it's oh so innovative (along with its claims of efficiency, both of which often get demonstrated as false).
I'd love to love anarcho capitalism, but i dont see how that's maintained and prevented from the economic mechanism of wealth consolidation and monopoly, and you end up losing liberty, no longer in a system of anarcho-capitalism, but drifted rather irrevokably to authoritarian forms of capitalism, because money is power, and as it accumulates and consolidates, by it taking money to make money and the more you have the less things cost, further and further, until you have monopoly and a completely broken unworking economic system.
needs tempered with something else. anarcho-something, for sure... no ilegitimate hierarchies please and thankyou, yup... so whilst there's the mechanistic authoritarianwards-drift vacuum of the anarcho economic-rightwing to aspire to preventing via ~*shrug-cringe*~... uhh, competition taking out the top.... contrast to... on the anarcho economic-left, there's the concern to not over-councilize. more a mere philosophical conundrum. not an economic mechanism towards tyranny baked in.
and while that carries on making the same certain assertive logical fallacies, let me jump ahead in partial agreement with:
yeah, maybe like in the 1950s? that when? or would you have considered that already too much corporatism and cronyism and oligarchy creeping in? [edit: yeah, there's an important point most seem to miss... if you're already in an authoritarian economic-rightwing system, trying to head to the economic-left wing, with no effort to take it from authoritarian to libertarian, you end up traversing far worse forms. FREEDOM FIRST! priorities straight. then we can quibble over the minutia of resource management, like, in general, whether its better to advocate more for sharing kindness or more for protectionist dog-eat-dog isolated striving against hardship as individuals. ... anyway, idk when the golden promised land of capitalism was, but at least back then you could still hope to do well, and even better than your parents... rather than the crap we have now. hozed by cabals of crooks exploiting us all directions, including usury.]
though, again, that's a staggering imbalance of certainty and imagination to assert it the best possible. such levels of certainty, make me check myself, that i've not become hypnotised by some spell of some kind. please don't truncate human potential like that, that we're reduced to cogs in the machine, to mere capita, rather than full sentient feeling beings due right treatment and worth at least aspiring to a better socio-economic paradigm than one of exploitation. new forms of crypto-slavery are still slavery. the emancipatory potentials of so many innovations get suppressed and secreted, to maintain the leverage of the exploiters, despite the potentials of the suppressed technology far exceeding the potential offered by enslaving everybody under manufactured economic duress.
aw heck, i might as well just quote bucky on the matter:
“We should do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living. It is a fact today that one in ten thousand of us can make a technological breakthrough capable of supporting all the rest. The youth of today are absolutely right in recognizing this nonsense of earning a living. We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because, according to Malthusian Darwinian theory he must justify his right to exist. So we have inspectors of inspectors and people making instruments for inspectors to inspect inspectors. The true business of people should be to go back to school and think about whatever it was they were thinking about before somebody came along and told them they had to earn a living.” ~ Buckminster Fuller
oh, right, yeah, verbosity disliked... i'll stop proof-reading before i add more, and will stop before i write another similar amount to other things said in this thread so far. lol
Nanook
in reply to Digit • •Nanook
in reply to Digit • •Tek ☠
in reply to Nanook • • •Nanook
in reply to Tek ☠ • •when a vacuum of power exists, someone steps in to fill it, and generally in an anarchy that person only has their own interests at heart.
Digit
in reply to Nanook • • •@Robert Dinse
re:
yeah, failing of visual thinkers. i shoulda just used a picture... or a graph... politicalcompass.org/
Tek ☠
in reply to Nanook • • •Nanook
in reply to Tek ☠ • •Tek ☠
in reply to Nanook • • •Digit
in reply to Nanook • • •yep.
it's kinda its own reward... and many inventors like the idea of inventing something to benefit humanity etc.... but i get your economic coercive/incentive gist, yeah
thousand do, many more yet when when all are not made to do unecessary drudgery and busywork ... like bucky said...
you lost me with that last one. surely, the follow on from that is why having leaders doesnt work.
decentralise, go anarcho... whether you do that in a style more kropotkin or more proudhon, i, more midarchistical nearer bakunin, dgaf. anything in that freedomist neck of the woods would be a shitload better than either nightmares of councilism drift to worsening authoritarianism, or nightmares of capitalism drift to worsening authoritarianism (if that's even possible, in some minds, given, the capita, in capitalism, is people, just reduced to mere ecconomic units... ) ... point being... freedom first.
if the emma goldmans and the ayn rands of the world put their heads together, they could defeat many hitlers, pol pots, and pinnochaets. and if they do it right... they'd not even need to.
Nanook
in reply to Digit • •Digit
in reply to Nanook • • •yeah, that's a big folly in many systems. some not only nullify your rewards, but nullify your efforts, and some even invert your efforts, and some even invert everybody's rewards.
would be nice if our elections were like an assortment of different systems to implement, and able to expand each and change some sliders and check-boxes around, creating a configuration file of how you'd like things to be, rather than a grunt mark on a paper (or even a mark on a screen of a "trust us"(TM) proprietary voting machine (bol!)), and everybody able to add more questions and configurations to further advance the options and inspiration for how people can have better say... and i'll bet there'd be a lot less "there should be unfairness and suffering" votes. heh.
i'd vote for get return from efforts as well as invest in enabling everybody to get on with investing their efforts with security of knowing they'd not be getting a boot in their face.
Nanook
in reply to Digit • •Digit
in reply to Nanook • • •yeah, that authoritarian centralised statist end of communism.
at the other end, where anarchism and communism meet, you get anacho-communism... decentralisation and empowerment for everybody n all that stuff... freedom supposedly held in everybody's mutual understanding another's freedom and prosperity is their own freedom and prosperity too. no more need to manufacture scarcities.
Tek ☠
in reply to Nanook • • •at the other end, where anarchism and communism meet, you get anacho-communism… decentralisation and empowerment for everybody n all that stuff… freedom supposedly held in everybody’s mutual understanding another’s freedom and prosperity is their own freedom and prosperity too. no more need to manufacture scarcities.This is closer to what I mean.
Literally, This
Digit
in reply to Nanook • • •idk, i'm not well read up on the various political philosophies yet. i cant teach it well and clear enough i don't think, but, it's just good to know that it's there, that the situation isnt just binary or linear, but is at least planar, and perchance even a third worthwhile important elucidating dimension too. out of not-even-flatland we go with our political systems, and the cartoons first past the post etc causes to grief us with.
seen flatland? it's good. ... or imagining the 10th dimension? good stuff. handy to cross apply to politics n bollocks.
Tek ☠
in reply to Nanook • • •Nanook
in reply to Tek ☠ • •Tek ☠
in reply to Nanook • • •Nanook
in reply to Tek ☠ • •Tek ☠
in reply to Nanook • • •Nanook
in reply to Nanook • •Tek ☠
in reply to Nanook • • •Digit
in reply to Nanook • • •Nanook
in reply to Digit • •Digit
in reply to Nanook • • •.... oh, there's that post i thought i posted.
oh, and, as for the meme's message at the start...
gun control... :3
there, i said it. ;D
lol.
been long time satirically waiting in the wind for that right-to-bear to defend and take back... have had the mutual goading of "hows the 2nd workin for ya? taken back n protected yet?" "how's that idealism philosophising workin for ya? got your spaceships for everybody yet?" not a million miles from ; and perhaps only slightly oblique from :
but like i say... oh if only the emma goldmans and ayn rands could get together to work on a freedom-positive combination of their philosophies, we'd have this licked. freedom and security, personal and property rights are preserved freedomwards possible perhaps in the abundance "if" 'only' we had "all Naruto-run together". the "boo"-into-pappy's-arms-we-react is a tiresome squanderance of our potential.
.... oh, there's that post i thought i posted.
Digit
in reply to Nanook • • •Tek ☠
in reply to Nanook • • •Nanook
in reply to Tek ☠ • •